Darren Wassall

[sage]

Just now, Bris Vegas said:

While some of that is true, I certainly don’t believe Brentford were a more attractive option than Derby for PL cast offs. Besides, not all came from London, with players like Sergio Caños coming from Liverpool/Norwich. Forss was from West Brom.

It is for London based cast offs. 

[Chris_Martin]

2 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

Over the years we certainly haven’t made the most of it. Or we’ve had good players at U18 level but their progress for whatever reason has stopped there.

Hendrick?  Hughes?  Knight?  Bird?  Sibley?  Ebosele?  Buchanan?  Huddlestone?  Grant?  Barnes?  Camp?  Tudgay?  Lowe?  Bogle?  

 

[Bris Vegas]

Just now, Chris_Martin said:

Hendrick?  Hughes?  Knight?  Bird?  Sibley?  Ebosele?  Buchanan?  Huddlestone?  Grant?  Barnes?  Camp?  Tudgay?  Lowe?  Bogle?  

 

We’ve spent more than £40m on academy fees since Mel Morris arrived. Where is the return on that?

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

2 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

Hendrick?  Hughes?  Knight?  Bird?  Sibley?  Ebosele?  Buchanan?  Huddlestone?  Grant?  Barnes?  Camp?  Tudgay?  Lowe?  Bogle?  

 

All these were before the 6 million per year, came into play .  Some cost but not this monolith of vanity that was never affordable outside the top division. Bogle was at Reading and Swindon first.

[Bris Vegas]

6 minutes ago, SirBrian said:

Academy is going to be the way forward with the financial problems throughout football for which our academy is the envey of many premier teams, the past few years Darren Wassell and his staff have been churning out young prospects and it will continue, for myself this is football and today another one Liam Thomson 19 years of age debut and not out of place, in fact outstanding, better than Butterfield or Johnson £8 million worth of rubbish?

This is one area Mel did get it right and i look forward seeing a Derby starting eleven from the academy, in the future.

How is our academy the envy of many Premier League teams?

The best player we have produced in the past decade doesn’t even get in Crystal Palace’s first team while the other had a solid spell at Burnley before becoming a bench player at bottom club Newcastle.

Every PL club (aside from Brentford) has produced better players than us over the past decade. 

Look at Norwich for instance. They netted over £40m on Ben Godfrey and Jamal Lewis alone while Todd Cantwell and Max Aarons are decent players.

 

[Bris Vegas]

5 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

All these were before the 6 million per year, came into play .  Some cost but not this monolith of vanity that was never affordable outside the top division. Bogle was at Reading and Swindon first.

And how much did we make on those stretching back to like 2003?

[Bris Vegas]

14 minutes ago, sage said:

It is for London based cast offs. 

And how many London based cast offs joined Brentford? Jay and Cole Dasilva. Everyone else they’ve signed elsewhere.

[RoyMac5]

23 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

We’ve spent more than £40m on academy fees since Mel Morris arrived. Where is the return on that?

Do we have to sell Bird, Buchanan, Knight, Ebosele, Williams, etc?

[NottsRam77]

1 hour ago, Bris Vegas said:

An academy is all good when you’re a Premier League side and you can afford it, all the while sending the best talent out to the Championship for experience.

You’re also protected against fellow PL sides stealing your best players.

But in the Championship and below I just don’t see how it’s financially worth it.

Put it this way, if we were in the PL and had Knight, Bird, Sibley and Buchanan come through and we loaned them out to stable Championship clubs, they’d arguably progress more while having a far higher value.

Unless you get lucky with a Jude Bellingham (signed to a pro contract) every few years, an academy is just a financial burden. You can get better value for money just using the academy expense to sign players to develop for the first team.

Forest have made millions from theres … millions and produced god knows how many from it

weve been managed terribly in respect to getting fees for the players 

[angieram]

55 minutes ago, sage said:

I've always wondered how much we would save if we did this. How much of the 'academy cost' is a training ground cost that we would still need?

Are you suggesting having no youth teams at all and just a 1st team and reserves?

I think you're right and it's very difficult to separate the costs of academy and training ground. You might rent less pitches but the building and infrastructure would still be there.

Yes, the academy costs, but it allows a percentage of the whole training facility to be outside of P&S, which benefits the first team as well, because they share all sorts of backroom costs.

[Bris Vegas]

6 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Do we have to sell Bird, Buchanan, Knight, Ebosele, Williams, etc?

I don’t know whether we have to sell them. But on evidence so far, they are not at the level to push us on to the Premier League while realistically selling them would only fetch say two year’s worth of academy fees.

Its not a coincidence that many other clubs have closed their academies. Teams like Huddersfield and Birmingham have, with the latter netting a far larger sale with Jude Bellingham.

I can’t see the justification of spending £5m a year on the academy to produce only one or two max Championship standard players per season. That money could be spent far better signing players to develop.

 

 

[sage]

2 minutes ago, angieram said:

I think you're right and it's very difficult to separate the costs of academy and training ground. You might rent less pitches but the building and infrastructure would still be there.

Yes, the academy costs, but it allows a percentage of the whole training facility to be outside of P&S, which benefits the first team as well, because they share all sorts of backroom costs.

What do you mean you think i'm right? You should know by now! ?  

[NottsRam77]

9 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Do we have to sell Bird, Buchanan, Knight, Ebosele, Williams, etc?

Weve been shockingly bad when it comes to selling these kids for money.. the most obvious being will Hughes

as i mentioned look at what forest got for some of theirs 

Ollie burke … 12-15m depending what u read

appiah… 8m (kicked the ball about 3 times for the first team) 

worral is worth about x million (apparently)

ben osborne 4.5m

matty cash 12m

ben brereton 8m 

Theyve got two in there atm (wingers) i can tell u now theyll go for north of 8m

this is before u start going back to reid, jenas, dawson, prutton etc etc 

Theyre the peterborough of the champ they manage to sell their products at inflated prices.. we give them away 

 

[NottsRam77]

14 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Do we have to sell Bird, Buchanan, Knight, Ebosele, Williams, etc?

Sorry roy that reply was meant for @Bris Vegaslol

[Bris Vegas]

9 minutes ago, NottsRam77 said:

Forest have made millions from theres … millions and produced god knows how many from it

weve been managed terribly in respect to getting fees for the players 

And Forest don’t spend anywhere near as much as we do on the running of their academy. Sort of proves the point.

We could just easily have a development squad and buy youth players for them.

Lets not forget that Ebosele and Jason Knight joined as 16-17 years olds. Louie Watson joined last year. You can still have a development squad with those of that age joining.

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Bris Vegas

[NottsRam77]

1 minute ago, NottsRam77 said:

Weve been shockingly bad when it comes to selling these kids for money.. the most obvious being will Hughes

as i mentioned look at what forest got for some of theirs 

Ollie burke … 12-15m depending what u read

appiah… 8m (kicked the ball about 3 times for the first team) 

worral is worth about x million (apparently)

ben osborne 4.5m

matty cash 12m

ben brereton 8m 

Theyve got two in there atm (wingers) i can tell u now theyll go for north of 8m

this is before u start going back to reid, jenas, dawson, prutton etc etc 

Theyre the peterborough of the champ they manage to sell their products at inflated prices.. we give them away 

 

Add darlow and lescelles in there too 

[Ghost of Clough]

4 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

I don’t know whether we have to sell them. But on evidence so far, they are not at the level to push us on to the Premier League while realistically selling them would only fetch say two year’s worth of academy fees.

Its not a coincidence that many other clubs have closed their academies. Teams like Huddersfield and Birmingham have, with the latter netting a far larger sale with Jude Bellingham.

I can’t see the justification of spending £5m a year on the academy to produce only one or two max Championship standard players per season. That money could be spent far better signing pqlayers to develop.

It's free investment under P&S. Spend £5m on the academy, sell 1 player for 1p and the club is in a better P&S position.

Spend £5m on a player and the club is in a £5m worse P&S position.

 

From a financial poijt of view, it was right for Birmingham tobmake that decision - they only managed to run at breakeven over the past 20 years thanks to the sale of Bellingham, and the players they currently have hold little value.

Meanwhile, over the past 10 years Derby have also broken even in terms of academy graduates sold and academy investment. However, Derby have a lot of players in the first team with significant value with a production line of Championship quality players (or better) in full motion.

[Bris Vegas]

14 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

It's free investment under P&S. Spend £5m on the academy, sell 1 player for 1p and the club is in a better P&S position.

Spend £5m on a player and the club is in a £5m worse P&S position.

 

From a financial poijt of view, it was right for Birmingham tobmake that decision - they only managed to run at breakeven over the past 20 years thanks to the sale of Bellingham, and the players they currently have hold little value.

Meanwhile, over the past 10 years Derby have also broken even in terms of academy graduates sold and academy investment. However, Derby have a lot of players in the first team with significant value with a production line of Championship quality players (or better) in full motion.

But all Championship clubs are run on the money of their owners regardless, not the club.

It’s still £5m a year the owner has to put in from his own pocket.

And from a financial point of view, why limit yourself to a select bunch of kids in the hope they might make it.

With development squad, you open up the scouting range to any eligible player, any age with the view of developing them for the first team and selling for a profit down the line.

The club itself doesn’t make money. the money the club has on its books is ultimately the owner’s money.

And history shows us at this level, you stand a far better chance making a better return by buying and selling g players rather than developing kids and hoping to sell them on.

I repeat, you can still have a development squad and sign players like Jeff Hendrick, Jason Knight and Festy Ebosele as 16 years olds. 

Also, last point, but we haven’t broken even with the sales of Hughes, Hendrick, Bogle, Lowe, Whittaker, Bennett. No way since we’ve been paying £5m a year since EPPP came into play.

And even if by some miracle we did break even, I’m sorry but that’s still a poor return. If you spend £30m over 5-6 years on recruitment, you absolutely should be making a profit. Any competent recruitment team should. We unfortunately have had one of the worst in the country during Mel’s reign and was a stark contrast to that during the George Burley and Nigel Clough years.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Bris Vegas

[Grumpy Git]

Just need the academy to churn out a half-decent goalie that hasn't got two left feet. ?

[Chris_Martin]

53 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

We’ve spent more than £40m on academy fees since Mel Morris arrived. Where is the return on that?

Hendrick £10.5m

Hughes £8m

Lowe & Bogle £12m

That's just over £30m which isn't far off covering it. Plus we have the value of Sibley, Knight, Williams, Buchanan, Bird, Thompson, Ebosele, Stretton. But I would prefer not to sell all those to be honest.