Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

[kevinhectoring]

7 minutes ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

I think we'd bring players in to prepare for league one. Get them used to being around the club, playing and building so we're ready for league one next season..

Don’t think Rooney’s lot will go for this at all. league 1 football is not his forte and I think they’ll fear he could get stuck there. Salary caps would be a big problem. They will be schmoozing the new owner for cash in Jan and aiming to stay up 

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

On current form we are getting relegated, let alone if you add another 3 point deduction in to the mix. The squad needs major surgery which means we need to get out of admin with new owners and leave ourselves enough time to get moves done. That gives us a little over seven weeks.

Ambitious to say the least.

[RadioactiveWaste]

I think we're going down at present. I think we'll go down if it's -15.

However, if everything is wrapped up at -15 and it looks like we're coming out of administration I think we have a slim chance, enough of one to keep fighting.

More than-15 and I think everyone gives up and it's league one here we come.

[MackworthRamIsGod]

1 hour ago, kevinhectoring said:

Don’t think Rooney’s lot will go for this at all. league 1 football is not his forte and I think they’ll fear he could get stuck there. Salary caps would be a big problem. They will be schmoozing the new owner for cash in Jan and aiming to stay up 

I hope that is the case, I just hope we are able to claw some points back between now and January, if we are flirting around 12 points from safety and are able to add 3 or 4 good players to this squad then anything can happen.

Especially if Bielik can come back and be even 80% the player he was.

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

I think if the athletic story is true you may have hit the nail on the head. Efl want to present it as 12 points for admin and 3 for ffp … in reality they might be worried about losing the admin appeal and that setting a precedent for other clubs. So they will present it as a 12 points for admin as that looks better for them.

I don't think the EFL are worried about the appeal for administration at all to be honest. It's nailed on.

[Foreveram]

8 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

I don't think the EFL are worried about the appeal for administration at all to be honest. It's nailed on.

Please share where you got this “nailed on information from” maybe I could go to the bookmakers and put all my money on it, I really can’t lose can I cos you’ve got this cast iron information, right

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

13 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

Please share where you got this “nailed on information from” maybe I could go to the bookmakers and put all my money on it, I really can’t lose can I cos you’ve got this cast iron information, right

It's the bit where the EFL wrote the rules around this to make it next to impossible for anyone to get the points removed. It's been done to death in this thread. We've been deducted 12 points and if we get them back it'll be the biggest upset since the first Soviet-Finnish war.

[PistoldPete]

5 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

It's the bit where the EFL wrote the rules around this to make it next to impossible for anyone to get the points removed. It's been done to death in this thread. We've been deducted 12 points and if we get them back it'll be the biggest upset since the first Soviet-Finnish war.

Let's wait and see shall we. Considering Mel Morris was saying we were looking at a minus four point deduction on FFP just for period up to 2018, it would be quite a coup for the adminsitrators to get the FFP deduction down to three points all in, if as you say the admin deduction was really nailed on. 

[Foreveram]

12 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

It's the bit where the EFL wrote the rules around this to make it next to impossible for anyone to get the points removed. It's been done to death in this thread. We've been deducted 12 points and if we get them back it'll be the biggest upset since the first Soviet-Finnish war.

Hang on, you said it was nailed on now your saying it’s next to impossible, this is my life savings I’m gambling here, do you actually know or are you just guessing like the rest of us.

[Ram-Alf]

17 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

It's the bit where the EFL wrote the rules around this to make it next to impossible for anyone to get the points removed. It's been done to death in this thread. We've been deducted 12 points and if we get them back it'll be the biggest upset since the first Soviet-Finnish war.

Not nailed on then?

[MackworthRamIsGod]

If what the administrators said is to be believed, I think this week could be a very significant week for the club.

They spoke a week ago about the next fortnight being significant in regards to takeovers and the administrators said they will want to hold further meetings with supporters groups to give further updates.

So, this week looks likely to be the beginning of the end of the points deductions that have crippled the club for a couple of years now, we may start to learn who the preffered bidders are and things could begin to look rosey.

That's the hope anyway.

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

14 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Not nailed on then?

Keep believing if it helps. We'll find out soon enough.

[i-Ram]

5 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

If what the administrators said is to be believed, I think this week could be a very significant week for the club.

They spoke a week ago about the next fortnight being significant in regards to takeovers and the administrators said they will want to hold further meetings with supporters groups to give further updates.

So, this week looks likely to be the beginning of the end of the points deductions that have crippled the club for a couple of years now, we may start to learn who the preffered bidders are and things could begin to look rosey.

That's the hope anyway.

We haven’t had any point deductions until September 2021. 

[Foreveram]

7 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

Keep believing if it helps. We'll find out soon enough.

So you don’t know then

[MackworthRamIsGod]

15 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

We haven’t had any point deductions until September 2021. 

Really? Seriously?

'THE THREAT OF POINTS DEDUCTIONS'

Is that better?

And yes I did shout.

[i-Ram]

17 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

Just further evidence for you.

 

Here is extract from  EFL statement from May 2021

"More specifically, the panel determined that the Club’s policy was not in accordance with accounting standard FRS102 because it failed to accurately reflect the manner in which the Club takes the benefit of player registrations over the lifetime of a player’s contract.

The original Disciplinary Commission had already concluded that the Club did not adequately disclose in its financial statements the nature and or effect of its change in accounting policy, and there has been no appeal against that decision."

 

Now my original reading of this, yes my opinion, was that this was deliberately misleading by EFL to put these two things together. Anyone reading that could conclude that Derby's alleged breaches of FRS102 was something they had got away with since 2015/16 only beause they hadn't adequately disclosed their policy.. possibly deliberately been misleading.
 

Sure enough  EFL's submission to the IDC on the penalties to apply , they made claims of bad faith on Derby's part, despite not making that charge at the original hearing (which De Marco naturally picked up on, as  I have highlighted). Sheff Wednesday were charged with bad faith (but not found guilty). Derby were not even charged with bad faith yet EFL still tried to allege it late in the process  in order to get us maximum penalty. Here is the extract, and to cut a long story short the IDC rightly agreed wih de Marco. EFL were trying it on.

"(EFL allegation) That the Club’s conduct had been ‘reckless’ and not in good faith, in the sense that the
Club must have known or suspected that the efficacy of its amortisation policy was
questionable (because its amortisation policy differed from that operated by other
clubs), yet had chosen not to investigate the same properly or at all prior to
implementing and operating the policy. In that regard the EFL pointed to
i) The Club’s failure to seek or obtain written advice (before implementing the policy)
as to whether the proposed new amortisation policy would comply with FRS 102
ii) The Club’s failure to keep written records of its operation of the amortisation policy

iii) The Club’s failure to keep written records of any advice sought or received as to
whether, as the policy was in fact being operated, compliance with FRS 102 was
being achieved
iv) The Club’s failure to seek confirmation from the EFL that the amortisation policy
that it was proposing to adopt, and then was applying, complied with FRS 102
(3) That the Club’s conduct (in not approaching the EFL proactively in connection with the
change in policy, in mis-recording the policy in its Annual Accounts and (on the EFL’s
case) in being less than open when it met with the EFL in May 2019) was consistent

with a desire on its part to ‘conceal’ the changed amortisation policy that it was in fact
applying, specifically from the EFL but also more widely
(4) That the Club had been negligent, and had behaved carelessly and unreasonably, by
adopting the amortisation policy that it did and by recording the same in the inaccurate
terms that it did in each set of Annual Accounts
59) Mr De Marco QC for the Club objected in strong terms to any suggestion by the EFL –
explicit or implicit – that the Club had acted deliberately (in the sense of dishonestly), in
bad faith or recklessly or that the Club had sought to consciously conceal anything about
the amortisation policy that it was operating. No such suggestion, he reminded us, had
ever been put to the Club or any of its witnesses. Likewise, the EFL
(1) Had not pleaded any such mens rea in connection with the Second Charge, and
(2) Had not presented its case on the Second Charge before us last year on any such
basis.
The Club’s position was accordingly that we should approach sanction on the basis that
the Club had acted honestly and in good faith in all respects";

Pete, I have re-read our exchanges from yesterday. I am happy to acknowledge the one point you have made above, but I am not sure in my mind the EFL did too much wrong here. There wasn’t anything too wrong, and certainly not incorrect, regarding the statement they issued. They can’t write chapter and verse in a short statement. What they reported was factually correct.

As for the back and forth in an Appeal Hearing, I am not sure what you might be expecting. The appeal hearing was an opportunity for the EFL and Derby to restate their cases. Both parties were represented by legal Counsel. Such a hearing is always going to be adversarial.

I am full square behind the Administrators, and therefore Club, trying to get our points penalty reduced to nil, or as close to it as possible - by which I mean the 12 point penalty that was correctly applied, and any other points penalty that might be pending as a result of Mad Mel’s P&S overspend. I actually do think there is a case for COVID to be argued as a Force Majeure event on the 12 point penalty. There is less argument for our P&S overspend, although that position is blurred by what is or isn’t and FRS compliant amortisation policy. No doubt that is still being discussed currently. However, I have yet to see a compelling argument as to why the Club changed it’s amortisation policy 5 or 6 years ago, other than to kick P&S spending down the line and therefore gain some advantage (or avoid some penalty). Morris and Pearce no doubt thought they were being clever at the time. Time has only evidenced them to be complete fools.

[i-Ram]

1 minute ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

Really? Seriously?

'THE THREAT OF POINTS DEDUCTIONS'

Is that better?

And yes I did shout.

Nope. What has crippled the Club over the last few years is the competence of the Club’s executive. 

[PistoldPete]

4 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Pete, I have re-read our exchanges from yesterday. I am happy to acknowledge the one point you have made above, but I am not sure in my mind the EFL did too much wrong here. There wasn’t anything too wrong, and certainly not incorrect, regarding the statement they issued. They can’t write chapter and verse in a short statement. What they reported was factually correct.

As for the back and forth in an Appeal Hearing, I am not sure what you might be expecting. The appeal hearing was an opportunity for the EFL and Derby to restate their cases. Both parties were represented by legal Counsel. Such a hearing is always going to be adversarial.

I am full square behind the Administrators, and therefore Club, trying to get our points penalty reduced to nil, or as close to it as possible - by which I mean the 12 point penalty that was correctly applied, and any other points penalty that might be pending as a result of Mad Mel’s P&S overspend. I actually do think there is a case for COVID to be argued as a Force Majeure event on the 12 point penalty. There is less argument for our P&S overspend, although that position is blurred by what is or isn’t and FRS compliant amortisation policy. No doubt that is still being discussed currently. However, I have yet to see a compelling argument as to why the Club changed it’s amortisation policy 5 or 6 years ago, other than to kick P&S spending down the line and therefore gain some advantage (or avoid some penalty). Morris and Pearce no doubt thought they were being clever at the time. Time has only evidenced them to be complete fools.

All I’m saying is that it’s pretty dirty tactics to throw in an allegation of bad faith at Derby at the last minute. If they were going to accuse Derby in that way, they should have done that from the outset when they had opportunity to throw it at the witnesses  and cross examine them ,  as de Marco pointed out.

by doing that at the last minute it just comes across as a desperate attempt to get a penalty point deduction . Quite rightly that attempt failed .

 

anyway there are rumours that we might be near to a deal with the Efl so hopefully this poo show will be over once and for all. 

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

25 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

So you don’t know then

Is the desire to be 'technically correct' that strong? Grow up. The reality is that the chances of our appeal resulting in anything other than us being stuck with the 12 points are slim to none. If you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend that isn't the case then crack on.

[Foreveram]

38 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

If what the administrators said is to be believed, I think this week could be a very significant week for the club.

They spoke a week ago about the next fortnight being significant in regards to takeovers and the administrators said they will want to hold further meetings with supporters groups to give further updates.

So, this week looks likely to be the beginning of the end of the points deductions that have crippled the club for a couple of years now, we may start to learn who the preffered bidders are and things could begin to look rosey.

That's the hope anyway.