The coronabrexit thread. I mean, coronavirus thread

[Archied]

4 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

I'm always wary of an article praising Peter Oborne tbh. The guy is a walking contrarian to conservatism whose built a career on a self declared proclamation that I haven't seen evidence for in a long long time.  His book on the Iranian nuclear weapons programme was fit for nothing but the rubbish and he has been on a downward spiral for years. The tone of the article is setting us up against those illiberal democracies and envisioning that we are going down that path but reassuring the reader we aren't there yet, it striked me as a bit of a subtle attempt of fear mongering. 

It's description of the UK constitution is really fundamentally flawed, the constitution is not unwritten it is uncodified and its ending description of it is just fundamentally quite ignorant of our constitutional history.  It also ignores the very real political restrictions embedded inside the constitution that do restrict the executive's ability to commit to action. Alongside this it paints a picture of mixing in political distortion with authoritarianism, these are different forms of political machinations with different end goals and different tactics. 

Yet ultimately, the last few paragraphs I do agree with and it kind of works as an anti-thesis to the very argument they were proposing. Politically, Johnson has been given space and time because of the pandemic but once that goes away he's got a weak economy, brexit, and a political party that has a history of patricide to contend with. His majority of 86 only looks strong because recent history (from 2010) has given us coalitions, confidence and supply arrangements and tiny majorities.  The electoral map is in the middle of reshaping itself making predictions inherently unpredictable and Johnson's character means once the sheen wears off it's difficult for him to reingratiate himself with people.

All of this ensures a weakened executive that by its nature will not be able to pull off the radically controversial moves the article is afraid of.  

You say the electoral map is in the middle of reshaping itself, out of interest how do you see that panning out?

I honestly find myself in a position where I really don’t see anything or anyone out there I can vote for , maybe it’s me , I know I feel I am somewhere between working class and middle class and for many years have felt I don’t quite belong or fit in either social settings as I have a strange mix/ hybrid of views,  maybe the class system has changed and politics and people haven’t caught up 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Archied

[Stive Pesley]

43 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

Yeah agree potentially. However it seems the end flash point was masks, which is daft. It’s up too the person if they wear a mask or not, not the new public police force who think it’s their right to enforce it. 

it's needlessly divisive isn't it? on one side you have people willing to make a scene and start having a go at people not wearing masks, then you have the people like I saw last week walking maskless around the Intu intimidating people who dared to look at them. No one even spoke to them and they were picking on people saying "what you effin looking at? should I be wearing a mask like you, ya twit?" etc
squaring up to people minding their own business

Sadly some people just seem to want to kick off about it, when we all just need to respect each other and not make a fuss. We're British dammit! ?

[Leeds Ram]

41 minutes ago, Archied said:

You say the electoral map is in the middle of reshaping itself, out of interest how do you see that panning out?

I honestly find myself in a position where I really don’t see anything or anyone out there I can vote for , maybe it’s me , I know I feel I am somewhere between working class and middle class and for many years have felt I don’t quite belong or fit in either social settings as I have a strange mix/ hybrid of views,  maybe the class system has changed and politics and people haven’t caught up 

Honestly I don't know. I think a lot of it hinges on how brexit works out, the economy and the functional running of the opposition in the next 2-3 years. It might be that things revert back to pre 2019 with previously labour voters returning home (although class de-alignment in relation to voting has been a phenomenon here since 79)  or it could be a resurgent third party starts to take a chunk out of 2 tired old parties seemingly out of ideas. Or the Conservatives could consolidate. 

[Gone]

9 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

it's needlessly divisive isn't it? on one side you have people willing to make a scene and start having a go at people not wearing masks, then you have the people like I saw last week walking maskless around the Intu intimidating people who dared to look at them. No one even spoke to them and they were picking on people saying "what you effin looking at? should I be wearing a mask like you, ya twit?" etc
squaring up to people minding their own business

Sadly some people just seem to want to kick off about it, when we all just need to respect each other and not make a fuss. We're British dammit! ?

I find it all immensely odd that people are falling out about this either way, it’s crazy ??

[Gone]

Yes get in!!!! I’m sold, make the passports mandatory…oi oi rave on 

 

[Eddie]

All venues we have been to in Cornwall this week still maintaining social distancing, checking in, table service, one-way systems, mask-wearing and the like - except Asda. They are not specifying mandatory mask-wearing, but even there, I think that we saw very few people not doing so, no confrontation and no lunacy.

[G STAR RAM]

25 minutes ago, Eddie said:

All venues we have been to in Cornwall this week still maintaining social distancing, checking in, table service, one-way systems, mask-wearing and the like - except Asda. They are not specifying mandatory mask-wearing, but even there, I think that we saw very few people not doing so, no confrontation and no lunacy.

Maybe that's because, despite the best efforts of people like yourselves and the media trying to paint a picture of us being a nation of selfish Covidiots, the huge huge majority of people are quite capable of sensibly using the personal responsibility they have now been afforded. Who knew.

[Stive Pesley]

today's good news story (for anyone on here that has had a mild case of covid already)

 

https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/good-news-mild-covid-19-induces-lasting-antibody-protection/

 

 

[Day]

2 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

today's good news story (for anyone on here that has had a mild case of covid already)

 

https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/good-news-mild-covid-19-induces-lasting-antibody-protection/

That’s from May though, naughty! Probably had another 20 University studies since then that range from 1 week to passing it on through genetics since then 

[Gone]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

All venues we have been to in Cornwall this week still maintaining social distancing, checking in, table service, one-way systems, mask-wearing and the like - except Asda. They are not specifying mandatory mask-wearing, but even there, I think that we saw very few people not doing so, no confrontation and no lunacy.

I was in Toton Tesco yesterday and then a co-op in Wollaton, 95% of people were wearing masks. And surprisingly for Nottingham no agro.

Although I had a pint in the Wollaton last night and it was business pre Jan 2020, order from the bar and stand at it if you want, no masks etc etc 

[QuitYourJibbaJivin]

17 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

today's good news story (for anyone on here that has had a mild case of covid already)

 

https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/good-news-mild-covid-19-induces-lasting-antibody-protection/

 

 

Only 1% of people who have been infected with Covid naturally require hospitalisation if they catch it again, where as 40% of double jabbed people are ending up in hospital. Surely the young who are far at far less risk of getting seriously are better off developing natural immunity than taking a vaccine where the long term side effects are still not known?

[Stive Pesley]

7 minutes ago, QuitYourJibbaJivin said:

Only 1% of people who have been infected with Covid naturally require hospitalisation if they catch it again, where as 40% of double jabbed people are ending up in hospital. Surely the young who are far at far less risk of getting seriously are better off developing natural immunity than taking a vaccine where the long term side effects are still not known?

That's a fair point - but a risky thing for the govt to explicitly push. The families of those young people who catch it and die would quite rightly feel aggrieved and could bring a case against the govt

I don't think it's gone unnoticed by those in charge though, and could actually be a covert strategy already

 

 

[G STAR RAM]

24 minutes ago, QuitYourJibbaJivin said:

Only 1% of people who have been infected with Covid naturally require hospitalisation if they catch it again, where as 40% of double jabbed people are ending up in hospital. Surely the young who are far at far less risk of getting seriously are better off developing natural immunity than taking a vaccine where the long term side effects are still not known?

Does this actually prove anything?

Not clever enough to do the maths but if 40million have been double jabbed and only 4million have had the virus then surely it stands to reason, especially when the double jabbed will include lots of the older and vulnerable category also?

[QuitYourJibbaJivin]

18 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

That's a fair point - but a risky thing for the govt to explicitly push. The families of those young people who catch it and die would quite rightly feel aggrieved and could bring a case against the govt

I don't think it's gone unnoticed by those in charge though, and could actually be a covert strategy already

 

 

I guess you’re right. They could never just push the youth out like lab rats to catch the disease and hope for the best but it does make the decision to force them to have it by bringing in vaccine passports even more needless.

[Wolfie]

1 hour ago, QuitYourJibbaJivin said:

Only 1% of people who have been infected with Covid naturally require hospitalisation if they catch it again, where as 40% of double jabbed people are ending up in hospital. Surely the young who are far at far less risk of getting seriously are better off developing natural immunity than taking a vaccine where the long term side effects are still not known?

 

That's very really, really not true.

36m people are double jabbed = 14.4million in hospital?

See the 40% explanation below...

On 20/07/2021 at 14:58, Wolfie said:

 

By way of explanation - from the BBC feed...

Reports of vaccinated people ending up in hospital causes alarm.

On Monday, chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance revealed that around 60% of hospitalisations were among people who are unvaccinated.

So that means for every 60 unvaccinated people hospitalised, about 40 who have been vaccinated are also ending up in hospital. Does that mean the vaccines are not working very well? Absolutely not.

That’s because for every 60 unvaccinated people, there are about 440 vaccinated adults in the population.

So that means the numbers of vaccinated people in hospital are at least 10 times lower than they would be if the vaccines did not work at all.

The 60:40 ratio therefore suggests the vaccines are a little over 90% effective at keeping people out of hospital.

But the news is even better than that. The figures are skewed by the fact the people who are most likely to be unvaccinated are the younger age groups - the ones least likely to end up in hospital.

If you factor that in the vaccines look to be well above 90% effective at keeping people out of hospital – bang in line with what all the research suggests.

 

[tinman]

[Wolfie]

2 hours ago, QuitYourJibbaJivin said:

 

 

So, push natural immunity how, exactly?. Covid parties - especially amongst those not vaccinated?. Great idea

 

[QuitYourJibbaJivin]

5 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

 

So, push natural immunity how, exactly?. Covid parties - especially amongst those not vaccinated?. Great idea

 

Don’t be facetious, obviously not Covid parties but pushing the vaccine as the be all and end all and forcing not at risk people to take it or face being cut off from society via vaccine passports is unnecessary. Especially when their own immune system can do the same job if not better.

[Wolfie]

14 minutes ago, QuitYourJibbaJivin said:

Don’t be facetious, obviously not Covid parties but pushing the vaccine as the be all and end all and forcing not at risk people to take it or face being cut off from society via vaccine passports is unnecessary. Especially when their own immune system can do the same job if not better.

How is it being facetious to question somebody saying "Why aren't the government pushing natural immunity"?. How do you push natural immunity without encouraging infection amongst the un-vaccinated.

Also, if you're going to post claiming that 40% of vaccinated people end up in hospital, you're going to get rebuttals. "facetious" or otherwise.

[G STAR RAM]

18 minutes ago, QuitYourJibbaJivin said:

Don’t be facetious, obviously not Covid parties but pushing the vaccine as the be all and end all and forcing not at risk people to take it or face being cut off from society via vaccine passports is unnecessary. Especially when their own immune system can do the same job if not better.

Their own immune system will not reduce the chances of them spreading it if they do get the virus though. 

FWIW I still dont think that justifies the need for vaccine passports that we were told were never going to happen.