Preseason 2020/21

[Shuff264]

2 minutes ago, desirelines said:

The number of times we've seen bad pre-seasons followed by decent seasons and decent pre-seasons followed by bad seasons. We should know not to read too much into the results. 

Does anyone know why Marshall didn't play? 

He's away with Scotland

[cheron85]

2 minutes ago, QuitYourJibbaJivin said:

Its a shame that after the debacle of last pre season most people were pinning their hopes on a more routine one this time around, turns out it’s been worse. A 3/4 week pre season with loss of injuries and a transfer embargo.

Cocu must have the worst luck of any manager we've had in my time watching Derby (30+ years)

He's had no time in pre-season twice, transfer embargos, players getting themselves broken off duty, key signings broken in u23 games, no prospect for much investment, regular season injuries and coming in on the back of huge (and undeserved) pressure from a fluke run to the playoff final (let's be honest about that eh?), season being split by a global pandemic

I think we're 2 signings (wingers) away from a pretty decent squad - But under the circumstances I still think Cocu is doing very well - I like the way he wants to play and the intent behind it - I love his positivity around blooding the youngsters and his faith in them - And I respect him wanting to take his time to get the right signings

[MACKWORTHRAM]

Not sure if it's been mentioned. But no Jozefzoon in the squad yesterday at all. Hope to god this means he's on his bike.

Even with our complete lack of attacking options he's still not getting in either. 

No JHI either. I've seen some people say we don't need another striker because we've got JHI which is absolute madness. The lad has never ever played at any level and he's expected to just score goals.

Creative mid, Winger, Striker. First 2 have to have pace and we need a big striker. Something different. 

I've seen WBA are signing Deeney and Karlam Grant.

I'd be on the phone asking to loan Zahore or Austin. 

[Ghost of Clough]

5 minutes ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

Not sure if it's been mentioned. But no Jozefzoon in the squad yesterday at all. Hope to god this means he's on his bike.

Even with our complete lack of attacking options he's still not getting in either. 

No JHI either. I've seen some people say we don't need another striker because we've got JHI which is absolute madness. The lad has never ever played at any level and he's expected to just score goals.

I don't think anyone is expecting him to score goals. If you look at our last 2 seasons, our 2 main CFs scored 10-15 goals each, with 3rd choice only scoring a couple despite playing in 30 games. A reapeat of that means Marriott and Waghorn scoring 10 each, with Trialist contributing where he can.

5 minutes ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

Creative mid, Winger, Striker. First 2 have to have pace and we need a big striker. Something different. 

Bird, Rooney, Sibley, Shinnie, Holmes, Knight, Evans and Bielik competing for 3 midfield spots and you want another? With our budget constraints we aren't going to sign anyone in that area unless we sell at least two of them.

5 minutes ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

I've seen WBA are signing Deeney and Karlam Grant.

I'd be on the phone asking to loan Zahore or Austin. 

These are just unrealistic suggestions given the wages they'll be on.

[Marriot Ram99]

Ghost of clough would be happy if we signed Connor Sammon as our attacking addition,  low wages so would be good for FFP and he has experience so will help the youngsters. 

[MACKWORTHRAM]

7 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I don't think anyone is expecting him to score goals. If you look at our last 2 seasons, our 2 main CFs scored 10-15 goals each, with 3rd choice only scoring a couple despite playing in 30 games. A reapeat of that means Marriott and Waghorn scoring 10 each, with Trialist contributing where he can.

Bird, Rooney, Sibley, Shinnie, Holmes, Knight, Evans and Bielik competing for 3 midfield spots and you want another? With our budget constraints we aren't going to sign anyone in that area unless we sell at least two of them.

These are just unrealistic suggestions given the wages they'll be on.

The midfield lacks creativity. I think we need something different in there. Most of them are defensive midfielders. Sibley plays more behind a striker. Knight is out wide. Holmes is probably the only one we have that can carry it from midfield. All the others are sideways passes. Evans you can probably discount from midfield because I doubt he'll play there again. 

As for JHI. If Waghorn or Marriott got injured. Waghorn is at the minute. Then he'd be expected to score goals. Only reason our 3rd striker last season hardly scored was because he was injured. If Marriott had been fit he would have scored more. 

What's to say if we did sign Zahore or Austin that we would have to pay all of their wages? I don't think they are unrealistic at all.

[RamNut]

Quote

Bird, Rooney, Sibley, Shinnie, Holmes, Knight, Evans and Bielik competing for 3 midfield spots and you want another? With our budget constraints we aren't going to sign anyone in that area unless we sell at least two of them.

There is a lack of creativity. 
bird, shinnie, Evans and Bielik are not noted for their creativity. 
rooney plays very deep. 
Sibley is almost becoming a second striker / no10. The creativity void is behind him in midfield. 

Its not just about individual players though. We seem to lack a collective attacking mentality.
we seem more interested in safety first, endlessly recycling possession to no effect.

We will pass backward at the slightest sign of a challenge.
there was an attack yesterday where Brown was on the edge of the box, but he turned around and passed all the way back to Solomon. Two seconds later it was back with Ravas.  There are endless examples of that. Bogle seems fearful and understandably so as he gets a hammering from Cocu if he loses the ball. 

Sibley is a breath of fresh air precisely because he doesn’t do that. He is off message, thankfully.
Maybe that’s what delayed him getting his chance. 

[Big Trav]

To be fair for a big lad bielik can really shift and carry a ball. Completely different way to how Holmes carry’s it but Burlington can definatly take it round people and start attacks. Him bird and sibley will be up there in the league stats if they play a full season together 

[Ghost of Clough]

6 minutes ago, Marriott Ram99 said:

Ghost of clough would be happy if we signed Connor Sammon as our attacking addition,  low wages so would be good for FFP and he has experience so will help the youngsters. 

Yes, that's exactly what I said. However, he was useful player in the QPR playoff final season, the same as Marriott last season and Nugent the season before. I don't know what people are expecting from a 3rd choice CF in this league to be honest. 

Leeds - 2nd, 3rd and 4th choice CFs scored a combined 6 between them when starting at CF or coming off the bench
West Brom - 3rd and 4th choice CFs scored 6 between them
Brentford - Other than Watkins I think only 1 goal was scored by another CF
Fulham - 2nd and 3rd choice scored 2 between them when playing at CF
Cardiff - 3 top scoring CFs scored a combined 18 from CF
Swansea - 2nd 3rd and 4th choice CFs 14 between them (1 was first choice for half a season)

[RoyMac5]

14 minutes ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

If Marriott had been fit he would have scored more. 

You know this how? Not exactly bagged many in preseason to give us all hope has he?

We didn't have enough firepower with Waghorn, Marriott and Martin last season so now we most definitely need new attackers in.

[Marriot Ram99]

6 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Yes, that's exactly what I said. However, he was useful player in the QPR playoff final season, the same as Marriott last season and Nugent the season before. I don't know what people are expecting from a 3rd choice CF in this league to be honest. 

Leeds - 2nd, 3rd and 4th choice CFs scored a combined 6 between them when starting at CF or coming off the bench
West Brom - 3rd and 4th choice CFs scored 6 between them
Brentford - Other than Watkins I think only 1 goal was scored by another CF
Fulham - 2nd and 3rd choice scored 2 between them when playing at CF
Cardiff - 3 top scoring CFs scored a combined 18 from CF
Swansea - 2nd 3rd and 4th choice CFs 14 between them (1 was first choice for half a season)

That's the thing, people are hoping for someone to challenge to be the 1st choice striker rightly or wrongly rather than just be a backup player. Personally would rather us sign 2 new wingers and a backup on loan but I can also see the need for a striker of quality because Marriott may not stay fit, Waghorn isn't good enough unless we are happy with mid table so people want someone who can make a big difference. Not just about goals, Waghorns touch let's him down and he doesn't have compusure in big moments which arguably costed us the points we needed to finish 6th last season. 

[FindernRam]

4 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Its not just about individual players though. We seem to lack a collective attacking mentality.
we seem more interested in safety first, endlessly recycling possession to no effect.

We will pass backward at the slightest sign of a challenge.

The story of recent seasons as has been stated by many on here in many match threads. Given the huge number of players we've had afflicted by this disease it must be down to the manager and training staff. I am totally bored with it. Play like Mac1 score a lot, concede a lot, at least look like you want to have a go.

[nottingram]

You can’t carry too many of one position in our financial situation, it’s just not something we can afford to do. Unfortunately if our two first choice strikers get injured then it will very much be a case of make do and mend with what we have, and that will be the case for I suspect 21 out of 24 teams in this league. 

I am not sure some people are quite grasping the situation we are in. It wouldn’t surprise me if the wage bill has been cut in half from a couple of years ago, probably is the case especially if we take Rooney out of the equation. The days of carrying third, fourth, fifth choices in positions are long gone, it just simply isn’t something we are able to do. All this pining for signings just in case is bizarre. Think we might get a winger on loan, anyone genuinely expecting more than that has their head in the sand about the state of Derby, the state of football finance and the state of the economy in general.

[ThePrisoner]

51 minutes ago, desirelines said:

The number of times we've seen bad pre-seasons followed by decent seasons and decent pre-seasons followed by bad seasons. We should know not to read too much into the results. 

Does anyone know why Marshall didn't play? 

On international duty

Edit: Oops @Shuff264 beat me to it!

[RamNut]

If we are going to play Marriott, he has to have a strike partner to occupy the defenders. He can’t play up front his own. Waghorn is our only centre forward. If he’s out we have nothing in reserve. We have plenty of second strikers, but no-one else who can lead the attack. 

a defensive formation with two holding players, three central defenders, (or both), creates an imbalance in the team. Too many defensive plodders. Not enough creative midfielders or attackers. 
if we are committed to one up front we might as well sell Marriott.

[RoyMac5]

Just now, nottingram said:

Unfortunately if our two first choice strikers get injured

Thing is, are our 'first choice strikers' of Cocu's choosing? Such an important position to 'make do and mend' in.

[Ghost of Clough]

5 minutes ago, Marriott Ram99 said:

That's the thing, people are hoping for someone to challenge to be the 1st choice striker rightly or wrongly rather than just be a backup player. Personally would rather us sign 2 new wingers and a backup on loan but I can also see the need for a striker of quality because Marriott may not stay fit, Waghorn isn't good enough unless we are happy with mid table so people want someone who can make a big difference. Not just about goals, Waghorns touch let's him down and he doesn't have compusure in big moments which arguably costed us the points we needed to finish 6th last season. 

But by signing a new first choice CF you're either relegating Marriott/Waghorn to 3rd choice - an expensive 3rd choice to have in our situation. The alternative is to move Waghorn to RW meaning we're resigned to not signing a winger, or we have an expensive backup in that area instead. It's not going to happen.

[Ghost of Clough]

3 minutes ago, RamNut said:

If we are going to play Marriott, he has to have a strike partner to occupy the defenders. He can’t play up front his own. Waghorn is our only centre forward. If he’s out we have nothing in reserve. We have plenty of second strikers, but no-one else who can lead the attack. 

a defensive formation with two holding players, three central defenders, (or both), creates an imbalance in the team. Too many defensive plodders. Not enough creative midfielders or attackers. 
if we are committed to one up front we might as well sell Marriott.

Sibley plays in a very advanced role, almost like a strike partner for our CF.

[Marriot Ram99]

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

But by signing a new first choice CF you're either relegating Marriott/Waghorn to 3rd choice - an expensive 3rd choice to have in our situation. The alternative is to move Waghorn to RW meaning we're resigned to not signing a winger, or we have an expensive backup in that area instead. It's not going to happen.

We will have to take a piss poor midtable finish with not many goals and selling our best youngsters next summer then. 

I'm still hopeful we will sign a couple if not, wouldn't surprise me if we hovered around 15th and people turn on Cocu by Christmas. 

[nottingram]

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

Thing is, are our 'first choice strikers' of Cocu's choosing? Such an important position to 'make do and mend' in.

I agree, but ultimately we have no choice in the matter. I know that Cocu was very keen on Marriott at the start of the season and it remains to be seen just how much of an effect his injuries had. 

We also know Cocu wanted to keep Martin and I’m sure that the club tried their very best to do this within the limits they have. Unfortunately when you have three players for one position, all on presumably highish wages, and one is out of contract and no one is paying fees, that’s the one who is easiest to lose. A shame but that seems to be the way it is.