Coronavirus

[Chester40]

On 27/01/2021 at 19:15, sage said:

It's debateable whether they should be allowed to carry on with the job they do. Working with vulnerable people then refusing to help protect them because you want a nice weekend. Makes me fume.

I am having the vaccine next week and I have had Covid already and it didn't make me particularly ill, so don't feel I really need it. The country however is on its knees so I will do my part. I have colleagues who don't want to have the vaccine and I have argued with them that they should. My children have had all their innoculations too so I'm not a conspiracy theorist. 

I am torn on whether they should be able to carry on their job if they are seen to be putting other people's health at risk but I find opinions expressed about refusing treatment /making people pay for treatment extremely troubling. 

Sounds like a dictatorship to me. And the thin end of the wedge. 

What about people who speed and crash their car, are they refused A&E treatment? What about criminals in prison are they refused cancer treatment? What about drug addicts? What about obese people, or people with mental health issues or suicide attempts or lung cancer related to smoking or people who have been in a fight and hurt their hand or got drunk and done something stupid like banged their head? Or people who get hurt doing extreme sports.. Or have had plastic surgery that goes wrong? Or have skin cancer from sun exposure? 

There are lots of instances where people get health treatment for things that are related to their own actions which go against health advice ...for anyone to want to open that Pandora's box beggars belief. 

 

[Archied]

6 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

I'm lucky enough to be able to work from home, although many others in my position are desperate to get back to work. Fortunately I still have a job and fortunately you do too.

You seem convinced that the government just want to control us and remove our liberties for some unspecified reasons. I'm glad their clampdown hasn't prevented your family from continuing to work though.

Fortunately I haven't lost anyone to Covid yet, but many people on here have, let alone those who have not mentioned it. I'm just asking you to bear their feelings in mind when posting your thoughts. I can't imagine it's particularly nice to have lost someone, then read posts saying the lockdown is pointless, the government just want to take our liberties away etc, especially when the general consensus is that dither and delay has caused both extra deaths and extra damage to the economy.

So we are agreed that I don’t have your luxury of being scared stiff for myself and my family ? I’m supposed to be scared stiff in the evening but go about my business every day? I don’t have the luxury of your level of choices to sit in an ivory tower and pass judgement on others lives and opinions or sit on a nice pension quaffing imported beer whilst throwing out insults to all and sundry who don’t have that luxury 

I lost a child to suicide a few years ago and often hear people say suicide is selfish or glibly throw out comments that they would hang themselves if such and such , I don’t make judgement on them , they just live and have lived a different experience from me.

do not come on here and tell me I don’t care about anybody who has died or lost someone it’s just a hugely distasteful tactic to slur those that don’t agree with you 

people are dying and will die let alone go on to live lives of misery and suffer from mental illness and the long term effects of lockdown s who you choose to put less value on ,, that’s your choice afforded to you from your lucky lofty position 

so put me on ignore rather than keep throwing out veiled insults because I’m seeing a far wider picture than you as my situation forces

 

[Sith Happens]

1 hour ago, Chester40 said:

I am having the vaccine next week and I have had Covid already and it didn't make me particularly ill, so don't feel I really need it. The country however is on its knees so I will do my part. I have colleagues who don't want to have the vaccine and I have argued with them that they should. My children have had all their innoculations too so I'm not a conspiracy theorist. 

I am torn on whether they should be able to carry on their job if they are seen to be putting other people's health at risk but I find opinions expressed about refusing treatment /making people pay for treatment extremely troubling. 

Sounds like a dictatorship to me. And the thin end of the wedge. 

What about people who speed and crash their car, are they refused A&E treatment? What about criminals in prison are they refused cancer treatment? What about drug addicts? What about obese people, or people with mental health issues or suicide attempts or lung cancer related to smoking or people who have been in a fight and hurt their hand or got drunk and done something stupid like banged their head? Or people who get hurt doing extreme sports.. Or have had plastic surgery that goes wrong? Or have skin cancer from sun exposure? 

There are lots of instances where people get health treatment for things that are related to their own actions which go against health advice ...for anyone to want to open that Pandora's box beggars belief. 

 

Agree we shouldnt prevent treatment, although i have always been someone who thinks we should take more personal responsibility for our health, we spend something like 6 billion a year on obesity related conditions, which in most cases are avoidable.

I dont know what the answer is but as you say we cant refuse treatment, maybe we are past the point where people take responsibility for their own actions, i mean in what normal soceity should we need a 'warning contents may be hot' warning on coffee?

Anyway relating to being allowed to work, i can see, especially if its proven the vaccines prevent transmission, that provided you have no religious or medical reason for not taking the vaccine, then some businesses may make it mandatory.

I did see Saga too were going to insist on proof you have had the vaccine before they will allow you to travel with them.

 

 

[Sith Happens]

46 minutes ago, Archied said:

So we are agreed that I don’t have your luxury of being scared stiff for myself and my family ? I’m supposed to be scared stiff in the evening but go about my business every day? I don’t have the luxury of your level of choices to sit in an ivory tower and pass judgement on others lives and opinions or sit on a nice pension quaffing imported beer whilst throwing out insults to all and sundry who don’t have that luxury 

I lost a child to suicide a few years ago and often hear people say suicide is selfish or glibly throw out comments that they would hang themselves if such and such , I don’t make judgement on them , they just live and have lived a different experience from me.

do not come on here and tell me I don’t care about anybody who has died or lost someone it’s just a hugely distasteful tactic to slur those that don’t agree with you 

people are dying and will die let alone go on to live lives of misery and suffer from mental illness and the long term effects of lockdown s who you choose to put less value on ,, that’s your choice afforded to you from your lucky lofty position 

so put me on ignore rather than keep throwing out veiled insults because I’m seeing a far wider picture than you as my situation forces

 

Just wanted to say im really sorry to read what you went through, I cant even start to imagine what its been like for you and your family to have to go through something like it.

 

[Mucker1884]

5 minutes ago, Sith Happens said:

Anyway relating to being allowed to work, i can see, especially if its proven the vaccines prevent transmission, that provided you have no religious or medical reason for not taking the vaccine, then some businesses may make it mandatory.

I did see Saga too were going to insist on proof you have had the vaccine before they will allow you to travel with them.

 

 

"Vaxists"!  ?

[Archied]

3 minutes ago, Sith Happens said:

Agree we shouldnt prevent treatment, although i have always been someone who thinks we should take more personal responsibility for our health, we spend something like 6 billion a year on obesity related conditions, which in most cases are avoidable.

I dont know what the answer is but as you say we cant refuse treatment, maybe we are past the point where people take responsibility for their own actions, i mean in what normal soceity should we need a 'warning contents may be hot' warning on coffee?

Anyway relating to being allowed to work, i can see, especially if its proven the vaccines prevent transmission, that provided you have no religious or medical reason for not taking the vaccine, then some businesses may make it mandatory.

I did see Saga too were going to insist on proof you have had the vaccine before they will allow you to travel with them.

 

 

Short term v long term is the crux of the matter , if everyone who chooses to has been vaccinated and that vaccine prevents them developing serious illness and or death then there is no need to have mandatory measures , short term ok ,long term no 

[Sith Happens]

10 minutes ago, Archied said:

Short term v long term is the crux of the matter , if everyone who chooses to has been vaccinated and that vaccine prevents them developing serious illness and or death then there is no need to have mandatory measures , short term ok ,long term no 

Yes, well i think a lot is short term right now, a bit like having a PCR test before a flight etc...surely thats not going to last forever, as you once people are protected long term as we learn more about the vaccines, how much they protect and how, and how long for, then in the future it can be adapted.

Personally see the vaccine being part of the annual flu jab maybe, or at least administered at the same time, eventually only for those at risk like we do with the flu jab. (Or maybe where businesses offer it to their employees which happens today with the flu jab)

We then accept, as we do with flu, that some people will die annually who either didnt get the level of protection for whatever reason, or they were not in the high risk groups to get the vaccine.

 

 

[Sith Happens]

17 minutes ago, Mucker1884 said:

"Vaxists"!  ?

Did surprise me the Saga one...would have thought its a step too far, but then its older people and guess they want to take every possible step to avoid someone on a cruise coming down with it.

[Mucker1884]

4 minutes ago, Sith Happens said:

Did surprise me the Saga one...would have thought its a step too far, but then its older people and guess they want to take every possible step to avoid someone on a cruise coming down with it.

Oh.  I can fully appreciate/understand why they'd be doing it.  I still think it might become an "ism" in the not too distant future though!  There's a lot of sensitive souls out there!   ?

[BIllyD]

7 hours ago, rammieib said:

Anyone else curious why the Government hasn’t underwritten the cost to have the Novavax vaccine already manufactured and being stockpiled. Could have started months ago....

Surely the cost of that is worth it to save lives?

The government have backed a lot of vaccines and done a fantastic job better by very few, credit where it's due.

As for this vaccine, unfortunately logistics etc aren't as simple as just underwriting the cost, the plant won't even be up and running for a couple of months.

[Sith Happens]

8 minutes ago, Mucker1884 said:

Oh.  I can fully appreciate/understand why they'd be doing it.  I still think it might become an "ism" in the not too distant future though!  There's a lot of sensitive souls out there!   ?

They will soon change their stance if bookings dip because of it.

[BIllyD]

14 minutes ago, Sith Happens said:

Yes, well i think a lot is short term right now, a bit like having a PCR test before a flight etc...surely thats not going to last forever, as you once people are protected long term as we learn more about the vaccines, how much they protect and how, and how long for, then in the future it can be adapted.

Personally see the vaccine being part of the annual flu jab maybe, or at least administered at the same time, eventually only for those at risk like we do with the flu jab. (Or maybe where businesses offer it to their employees which happens today with the flu jab)

We then accept, as we do with flu, that some people will die annually who either didnt get the level of protection for whatever reason, or they were not in the high risk groups to get the vaccine.

 

 

I wouldn't necessarily back that it will be short term quite yet. It's not just a regional virus and therefore in order for it to be controlled, this needs to be globally. The difference between this and the flu is the rate it spreads, the original variant being 3 times more likely, the new ones seem to double this at least.

I can see it being a requirement for travel going forward, both in and out of the country.

[GboroRam]

Just now, Sith Happens said:

They will soon change their stance if bookings dip because of it.

To be fair they won't. Vaccine support is running far higher than scepticism, so if anything it might convince some waverers to book who otherwise would have stayed home. I think the vocal minority seem to be more prominent than the silent majority, making it seem there's more people who don't approve than there really are.

[sage]

2 hours ago, Chester40 said:

I am having the vaccine next week and I have had Covid already and it didn't make me particularly ill, so don't feel I really need it. The country however is on its knees so I will do my part. I have colleagues who don't want to have the vaccine and I have argued with them that they should. My children have had all their innoculations too so I'm not a conspiracy theorist. 

I am torn on whether they should be able to carry on their job if they are seen to be putting other people's health at risk but I find opinions expressed about refusing treatment /making people pay for treatment extremely troubling. 

Sounds like a dictatorship to me. And the thin end of the wedge. 

What about people who speed and crash their car, are they refused A&E treatment? What about criminals in prison are they refused cancer treatment? What about drug addicts? What about obese people, or people with mental health issues or suicide attempts or lung cancer related to smoking or people who have been in a fight and hurt their hand or got drunk and done something stupid like banged their head? Or people who get hurt doing extreme sports.. Or have had plastic surgery that goes wrong? Or have skin cancer from sun exposure? 

There are lots of instances where people get health treatment for things that are related to their own actions which go against health advice ...for anyone to want to open that Pandora's box beggars belief. 

 

I haven't talked about people paying for treatment.

Here is a list of occupations and tell me if a vaccine should be compulsory (when available) to carry on doing that job.

Doctor 

Nurse

Paramedic

Dentist

Police Officer

Teacher 

Social Worker

Bus Driver 

Train Conductor

Care Home Worker 

 

Would you be happy if one of these people were interacting with you or your family having refused a vaccine?

Now it's a difficult subject but so is a 100,000 deaths.

 

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

So we are agreed that I don’t have your luxury of being scared stiff for myself and my family ? I’m supposed to be scared stiff in the evening but go about my business every day? I don’t have the luxury of your level of choices to sit in an ivory tower and pass judgement on others lives and opinions or sit on a nice pension quaffing imported beer whilst throwing out insults to all and sundry who don’t have that luxury 

I lost a child to suicide a few years ago and often hear people say suicide is selfish or glibly throw out comments that they would hang themselves if such and such , I don’t make judgement on them , they just live and have lived a different experience from me.

do not come on here and tell me I don’t care about anybody who has died or lost someone it’s just a hugely distasteful tactic to slur those that don’t agree with you 

people are dying and will die let alone go on to live lives of misery and suffer from mental illness and the long term effects of lockdown s who you choose to put less value on ,, that’s your choice afforded to you from your lucky lofty position 

so put me on ignore rather than keep throwing out veiled insults because I’m seeing a far wider picture than you as my situation forces

 

Really sorry to hear about your child, can't imagine what that was like.

I'd also be scared if my family were all out at work over the last month. When my kids were at school until Xmas I was starting to assume we'd all get Covid like many other parents I knew.

I'm struggling to understand your fears of Covid though vs many of your posts on the subject. You seem to resent any restrictions on your freedom and imply the government are acting in a sinister way, when they clearly are trying to prevent the spread of a disease you are rightly scared of?

By reducing the spread of Covid, this will especially help families like yours who have to work from catching it.

Hope you all keep safe and things get back to normal soon.

 

[BIllyD]

18 minutes ago, sage said:

I haven't talked about people paying for treatment.

Here is a list of occupations and tell me if a vaccine should be compulsory (when available) to carry on doing that job.

Doctor 

Nurse

Paramedic

Dentist

Police Officer

Teacher 

Social Worker

Bus Driver 

Train Conductor

Care Home Worker 

 

Would you be happy if one of these people were interacting with you or your family having refused a vaccine?

Now it's a difficult subject but so is a 100,000 deaths.

 

It's an interesting debate.

This isn't like other reasons stated in chesters post for me, none of them put other people at risk, when being treated. Everyone has a right to refuse the vaccine, but how would they feel if the Doctors had the right to refuse treating them based on the risk they pose.

Also I'd like to know if someone coming into my house has refused to be vaccinated, then I could take a balanced view if for example, it was someone to repair something, I could ask for someone else.

Im not saying on the above that I would go for either of these actions, just that it is thought provoking....

[maxjam]

26 minutes ago, sage said:

I haven't talked about people paying for treatment.

Here is a list of occupations and tell me if a vaccine should be compulsory (when available) to carry on doing that job.

Doctor 

Nurse

Paramedic

Dentist

Police Officer

Teacher 

Social Worker

Bus Driver 

Train Conductor

Care Home Worker 

 

Would you be happy if one of these people were interacting with you or your family having refused a vaccine?

Now it's a difficult subject but so is a 100,000 deaths.

 

I am of the opinion that if someone doesn't want a vaccine, thats their perogative. 

Would I be bothered if they were interacting with my family?  Not if we'd all had the jab.

[Chester40]

34 minutes ago, sage said:

I haven't talked about people paying for treatment.

Here is a list of occupations and tell me if a vaccine should be compulsory (when available) to carry on doing that job.

Doctor 

Nurse

Paramedic

Dentist

Police Officer

Teacher 

Social Worker

Bus Driver 

Train Conductor

Care Home Worker 

 

Would you be happy if one of these people were interacting with you or your family having refused a vaccine?

Now it's a difficult subject but so is a 100,000 deaths.

 

Tbf I purposely didn't say that was your argument, but I know other's have said that. 

I would be fine, as @maxjamsaid it's up to people to take responsibility for themselves not tell other people what to do. 

@BIllyDyou say the argument is different because those people aren't hurting other people? Two things, firstly that isn't my argument though really its about people using health resources that are avoidable and costing money and also putting other people at risk due to scarcity of beds etc. Secondly, a drink driver who crashes and hurts someone else are they themselves worthy of free treatment? 

[BIllyD]

14 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I am of the opinion that if someone doesn't want a vaccine, thats their perogative. 

Would I be bothered if they were interacting with my family?  Not if we'd all had the jab.

That's very noble of you. Having children of young age they won't be jabbed, there is also the effectiveness of the vaccine not being 100% and quite a bit lower for the new variant.

Based on this, whilst I agree that it is their prerogative, I think I wouldn't be as relaxed.

[BIllyD]

2 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

Tbf I purposely didn't say that was your argument, but I know other's have said that. 

I would be fine, as @maxjamsaid it's up to people to take responsibility for themselves not tell other people what to do. 

@BIllyDyou say the argument is different because those people aren't hurting other people? Two things, firstly that isn't my argument though really its about people using health resources that are avoidable and costing money and also putting other people at risk due to scarcity of beds etc. Secondly, a drink driver who crashes and hurts someone else are they themselves worthy of free treatment? 

Whilst I understand your point and you could certainly argue for your second point, for me they are not comparable. 
 

If you are of the opinion you don't want to take the vaccine, then fair enough, however if you are then going into a building, in this example a hospital, that is putting others at risk because you have a highly contagious virus, then shouldn't the people that are treating you also have the right to say no.
 

Someone going in after DD for example, is not putting people at risk.

I'm  of the opinion of I stopping treatment would be extreme, however as above, not having the vaccine could impact others, therefore for me personally I would reserve the same right to not have them around my family or myself.