Coronavirus

[GboroRam]

49 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

Hmmm. If only there were a country called Sweden. 

Sweden has a very different mentality to us British. I read that in Sweden they have abandoned the 2m rule and returned to the usual 5m.

[ariotofmyown]

5 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Sweden has a very different mentality to us British. I read that in Sweden they have abandoned the 2m rule and returned to the usual 5m.

Typical of yet another nation who hates freedom.

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

I thought being on a fringe was like holding views that are marginal or therefore extreme. 

Which seems odd. Seeing as though the way I've voted in the last 10 years hasn't seen me be on the losing side.

Your lot may have won the elections, but we still control the media, the schools, the universities, the law, the industry, the culture, the everything. Apparently.

[Ghost of Clough]

10 hours ago, TexasRam said:

Haha I am saying they do nothing. Wear a mask and keep apart are the only ways imo, everything else is just doing far more damage than a virus that is only dangerous to around at most 0.007% of the population 

I presume dangerous = leading to death... then you’re a factor of 10 out based on current figures (excess deaths / UK population). However, you’ve completely ignored those who, without lockdown, would have caught the virus and died. The death toll would have undoubtedly been much bigger. 
 

1 hour ago, TexasRam said:

Interesting and well presented graphic, showing that Covid only effects a tiny proportion of the population, where as the restrictions effect the whole picture. You’d be hard of thinking to just keep posting  anecdotal none data driven comments saying we’re all doomed. 

And how high would the death toll have been (or will be) if there was no lockdown? ?‍♂️

[Norman]

37 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Your lot may have won the elections, but we still control the media, the schools, the universities, the law, the industry, the culture, the everything. Apparently.

Was just pointing out how views and opinions on a very small sample size of people on a forum can turn normal views into a version of a reality where they are claimed to be extreme. Or compared to, or linked to, crazy conspiracy theories. 

Which in itself could be viewed as an extreme, marginal or fringe view to hold.

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, Uptherams said:

Hmmm. If only there were a country called Sweden. 

It's a very valid point.

The Swedes have been VERY keen on social distancing, hand-washing and wearing face masks throughout.

All the Swedes I have ever met have been sensible, well-adjusted people with an almost in-built sense of both personal and societal responsibility.

Unlike us.

[ariotofmyown]

13 minutes ago, Norman said:

Was just pointing out how views and opinions on a very small sample size of people on a forum can turn normal views into a version of a reality where they are claimed to be extreme. Or compared to, or linked to, crazy conspiracy theories. 

Which in itself could be viewed as an extreme, marginal or fringe view to hold.

 

Fair point. Anything under 53% is fringe in my view. As long as it's above 47.9% ?

[Gone]

23 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I presume dangerous = leading to death... then you’re a factor of 10 out based on current figures (excess deaths / UK population). However, you’ve completely ignored those who, without lockdown, would have caught the virus and died. The death toll would have undoubtedly been much bigger. 
 

And how high would the death toll have been (or will be) if there was no lockdown? ?‍♂️

You tell me, you obviously know. Has lockdown worked, did it work? 

[Eddie]

24 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

You tell me, you obviously know. Has lockdown worked, did it work? 

Do you think the lockdown was a waste of time? I'm assuming that even you feel that it did have an effect on the death toll, which was enormous in March through to May, but equally you feel that the cost to the economy did not justify making any attempt to save lives.

[Uptherams]

55 minutes ago, Eddie said:

It's a very valid point.

The Swedes have been VERY keen on social distancing, hand-washing and wearing face masks throughout.

All the Swedes I have ever met have been sensible, well-adjusted people with an almost in-built sense of both personal and societal responsibility.

Unlike us.

You know this because you leave your house all the time and see what people are doing in the UK all day everyday. Then you pop over to Sweden to see them all day everyday too. 

Or you barely leave your house and you can't make a judgement like that whatsoever? ?

[Uptherams]

Sweden

UPDATED 25 SEP 2020 10:24

https://www.krisinformation.se/en/hazards-and-risks/disasters-and-incidents/2020/official-information-on-the-new-coronavirus/visiting-sweden-during-the-covid-19-pandemic

 

[Wolfie20]

8 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

You know this because you leave your house all the time and see what people are doing in the UK all day everyday. Then you pop over to Sweden to see them all day everyday too. 

Or you barely leave your house and you can't make a judgement like that whatsoever? ?

Silly argument. I don't need to go to the Antarctic to know that the polar ice cap is melting in the same way I've not been to New Zealand since this pandemic started but know how they have successfully combatted its' effects better than the vast majority of countries.

If our government had been as positive in the early weeks of the outbreak then maybe we wouldn't have to be going through the current social restrictions.

As a nation we have brought it upon ourselves - a totally inept government and too many people whose whole attitude to the issue is 'as long as I'm alright Jack'.

 

[Uptherams]

3 minutes ago, Wolfie20 said:

Silly argument. I don't need to go to the Antarctic to know that the polar ice cap is melting in the same way I've not been to New Zealand since this pandemic started but know how they have successfully combatted its' effects better than the vast majority of countries.

If our government had been as positive in the early weeks of the outbreak then maybe we wouldn't have to be going through the current social restrictions.

As a nation we have brought it upon ourselves - a totally inept government and too many people whose whole attitude to the issue is 'as long as I'm alright Jack'.

 

?? Yeah, I'm the one being silly ??

[Wolfie20]

1 minute ago, Uptherams said:

?? Yeah, I'm the one being silly ??

At last, something we can agree on  ?

[Uptherams]

Sweden have had significantly less restrictions throughout this all. The Sweden approach is wrong they said (you guys). 

Now 6 months later, when the stats show 1.5 or so average daily Covid deaths in Sweden for 2 whole months, it's because they were very strict and well behaved.

??

Many doctors and scientist's are saying that, and have for some time, all  restrictions and lockdown does is delay a death, not prevent it. 

If they are right they are right. This is coming from someone (me) who thought we'd be getting hundreds of thousands of deaths in the UK based on the modelling I had seen in early March. I was so worried because the model had accurately predicted Italy's daily deaths for several weeks and once it got to 1500 or so, was predicted to double everyday, until hospital's were over run and in the space of 2-3 weeks, tens of thousands, even up to 100,000 people dying everyday. 

That was then, this is now. I changed my mindset as more information was published.

Comparable to the flu ?

[Gone]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

Do you think the lockdown was a waste of time? I'm assuming that even you feel that it did have an effect on the death toll, which was enormous in March through to May, but equally you feel that the cost to the economy did not justify making any attempt to save lives.

Yes I think it was a waste of time and made no difference and will only cause further damage socially and economically to our country, I’ve made this clear several times

[Gone]

Little update ?

[Albert]

4 hours ago, TexasRam said:

Interesting and well presented graphic, showing that Covid only effects a tiny proportion of the population, where as the restrictions effect the whole picture. You’d be hard of thinking to just keep posting  anecdotal none data driven comments saying we’re all doomed. 

The pandemic has yet to run it's course. Imagine seeing a building on fire and telling the firefighters to take a break because 'there's plenty of building left'. 

3 hours ago, Uptherams said:

Hmmm. If only there were a country called Sweden. 

Watching Sweden and saying 'that's the way to do it' is like seeing someone getting hit by a car crossing the road and going 'well, they lived, so that's how you're meant to cross the road. 

They've had 57.74 deaths per 100,000 population, which is abysmal compared to their neighbours: 11.18 for Denmark, 5.08 for Norway, 11.41 for Germany, and 6.22 for Finland. Their numbers are appalling. 

What's worse is that their economy is still in the toilet through it all. At -8.3% GDP growth in the 2nd quarter, they compare poorly with Finland (-5.2) and Norway (-5.3), in line with Denmark (-8.5%) and little better than Germany (-11.7%). The bigger picture is yet to play out for them too in the economic sense, which any hope of them controlling the disease and reaching the 'travel bubble' stage being virtually zero. 

9 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

Sweden have had significantly less restrictions throughout this all. The Sweden approach is wrong they said (you guys). 

Now 6 months later, when the stats show 1.5 or so average daily Covid deaths in Sweden for 2 whole months, it's because they were very strict and well behaved.

??

Many doctors and scientist's are saying that, and have for some time, all  restrictions and lockdown does is delay a death, not prevent it. 

If they are right they are right. This is coming from someone (me) who thought we'd be getting hundreds of thousands of deaths in the UK based on the modelling I had seen in early March. I was so worried because the model had accurately predicted Italy's daily deaths for several weeks and once it got to 1500 or so, was predicted to double everyday, until hospital's were over run and in the space of 2-3 weeks, tens of thousands, even up to 100,000 people dying everyday. 

That was then, this is now. I changed my mindset as more information was published.

Comparable to the flu ?

 

See above, Sweden's numbers are appalling. 

I would be very interested to read a peer reviewed article that suggests that lockdowns only delay deaths. Where I am at the moment, they've gone the other way, and been highly successful. The United Kingdom is running at 63.26 deaths per 100,000 people, while here we're at 3.49, and with a trend that's becoming flatter by the day. More than half the country is virtually free of the virus at this time too, and the controls have been able to successfully stop outbreaks as they happen. This idea that 'they only delay deaths' is bizarre, and at it's core, the very concept put further is a strange one. Most modern medicine is just about delaying deaths. Following the same logic, we shouldn't treat any cancers that metastasize; it's just delaying death. 

Restrictions were what has saved all those extra lives to this point, and without further restrictions, the UK will run the risk of a major second wave. The numbers are coming back up already. 

Also, calling this disease 'like the flu' is pants on head stuff. The worst ever years for the flu don't even reach 650,000, and these are endemic diseases that are totaled together, not one disease that's hit only a fraction of the World's population so far. At this time, the Covid-19 death toll, from less than a year, is already at that 1 million mark, and is generally accepted as a vast underestimate. 

[Albert]

13 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

Yes I think it was a waste of time and made no difference and will only cause further damage socially and economically to our country, I’ve made this clear several times

Lockdowns, etc, were what has kept the actual numbers below the modelled worse case scenario. 

As noted elsewhere, countries that have successfully contained the virus are the ones recovering economically. No country is recovering economically by letting this fire burn. 

[Rev]

15% of British households live alone.

40% of Swedish households live alone.

Something to bear in mind when comparing a virus that transmits most easily in the household environment.