Coronavirus

[Uptherams]

26 minutes ago, Albert said:

The pandemic has yet to run it's course. Imagine seeing a building on fire and telling the firefighters to take a break because 'there's plenty of building left'. 

Watching Sweden and saying 'that's the way to do it' is like seeing someone getting hit by a car crossing the road and going 'well, they lived, so that's how you're meant to cross the road. 

 

Then you proceed to do exactly that ? 

 

[Uptherams]

 

''A good graph that illustrates how well the 3 month lockdown and associated continuing measures have worked in containing the virus

You'd have to be pretty hard of thinking to try and use that graph as a reason to justify why you think the measures have been over the top and we should just stop''

Me:

''Hmmm. If only there were a country called Sweden.'' 

https://www.google.com/search?q=sweden+covids+detahs&rls=com.microsoft:en-GB:{referrer:source?}&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7SVEA_enGB373

https://www.google.com/search?q=uk+covid+deaths&rls=com.microsoft:en-GB:{referrer:source?}&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7SVEA_enGB373

I can compare these two graphs of two different nations and two different approaches. Rightly or wrongly. But I can compare. 

What I can't do is compare UK lockdown + measures with a UK  that had no lockdown + no measures. Because we live in one timeline. 

 

UK politicians and chief scientific and medical officer say flatten the curve. 

Swedish and other doctors and scientists say different approaches still lead to the same number of deaths.

Anyone notice anything?? It's starring you right in the face. It's the exact same message with different language. 

 

 

[Uptherams]

42 minutes ago, Albert said:

Lockdowns, etc, were what has kept the actual numbers below the modelled worse case scenario. 

As noted elsewhere, countries that have successfully contained the virus are the ones recovering economically. No country is recovering economically by letting this fire burn. 

This is daft. You are talking about short term economic implications and most importantly not bothering to include fiscal stimulus. The ramifications won't just be felt in the first few quarters. Not even for just a decade, but a generation. No one has even begun to implement changes in taxes to help pay for the stimulus in these nations. Our own government even announced more deferrals this week. 

I wonder how well a country does in the future, having people missing out on their education for 6 months. I wonder what the impact of treating higher education students like lepper prisoners will have not just on these people, but every future prospective student. As we may be witnessing the destruction of the current university system right now. 

I would say I find it surprising, but I don't, that the kind of people who say children are the future and higher education is a basic human right, etc, don't seem so fussed right now. Even when it's those damn evil Tories doing it. 

[ariotofmyown]

17 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

This is daft. You are talking about short term economic implications and most importantly not bothering to include fiscal stimulus. The ramifications won't just be felt in the first few quarters. Not even for just a decade, but a generation. No one has even begun to implement changes in taxes to help pay for the stimulus in these nations. Our own government even announced more deferrals this week. 

I wonder how well a country does in the future, having people missing out on their education for 6 months. I wonder what the impact of treating higher education students like lepper prisoners will have not just on these people, but every future prospective student. As we may be witnessing the destruction of the current university system right now. 

I would say I find it surprising, but I don't, that the kind of people who say children are the future and higher education is a basic human right, etc, don't seem so fussed right now. Even when it's those damn evil Tories doing it. 

You are such a gloomster. Everything will be great.

[Eddie]

3 hours ago, Uptherams said:

You know this because you leave your house all the time and see what people are doing in the UK all day everyday. Then you pop over to Sweden to see them all day everyday too. 

Or you barely leave your house and you can't make a judgement like that whatsoever? ?

It's all a plot, isn't it? By crikey, it's a good job we have enlightened people like you who can tear their way through the clouds of propaganda. Who's behind it all - Gates, Soros or the Rothschilds - or is there, perchance, some other puppet-master?

Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor?

[Eddie]

58 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

You are such a gloomster. Everything will be great.

At least we can all blame Covid-19 for the next decade of austerity.

[1of4]

12 minutes ago, Eddie said:

At least we can all blame Covid-19 for the next decade of austerity.

Nerh there'll be no decade of austerity, not when brexit kicks in in January. And if we go with the no deal version things will be even better.

[B4ev6is]

Well borris I know lets shut pubs at 10pm that should put people in line er wrong all it has done made people sticking two fingers up sayinh well if shut pubs and night clubs we shall just carry on in the streets partying night away.

Also lets see how much we can make peoples lifes even misable as it is already lets stop football fans going to games to next year never mind those who paid lots of money clubs season tickets holders and let cancel pantiomines lets decide who jobs to save and those who we deem not worth saving.

[Eddie]

24 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

Nerh there'll be no decade of austerity, not when brexit kicks in in January. And if we go with the no deal version things will be even better.

So @Uptheramstells me, and he knows stuff.  Study it out.

[Albert]

8 hours ago, Uptherams said:

Then you proceed to do exactly that ? 

 

Most children realise quite young that 'no, your are' isn't an actual retort. 

7 hours ago, Uptherams said:

This is daft. You are talking about short term economic implications and most importantly not bothering to include fiscal stimulus. The ramifications won't just be felt in the first few quarters. Not even for just a decade, but a generation. No one has even begun to implement changes in taxes to help pay for the stimulus in these nations. Our own government even announced more deferrals this week. 

I wonder how well a country does in the future, having people missing out on their education for 6 months. I wonder what the impact of treating higher education students like lepper prisoners will have not just on these people, but every future prospective student. As we may be witnessing the destruction of the current university system right now. 

I would say I find it surprising, but I don't, that the kind of people who say children are the future and higher education is a basic human right, etc, don't seem so fussed right now. Even when it's those damn evil Tories doing it. 

You say that I'm talking about short term economic implications, yet are missing the bigger picture in all this. 

Where I am right now, the shops are open, the cinemas are open, the schools are open. It's not as busy as it was, the economy is ticking, and consumer confidence is returning. This is, largely, down to there being no cases of the disease here, so while people are still cautious, things have found their new normal for now. 

Stimulus will be costly, but you're falsely conflating that with lockdowns. Lockdowns are no more the cause for the financial downturn than firefighters are the cause of fires. Consumer confidence is shot globally, people don't want to go out, and ironically this is what's driven cases down even in places where there haven't been as many government mandated measures. The difference is, however, that places that went hard, and went early, as the research suggested all along, are reaping the benefits. While those that went with these silly half measures now have both a massive human and economic cost to deal with, with no reward, and no end in sight. 

Nobody here is missing out on their education, because we are open, because we can, because we got on top of things. Short term pain for long term gain was the motto, and where I am, the schools were only shut for 2 weeks. Let me repeat, 2 weeks. 

That's the thing though, if the UK were competently managed, there's no way they'd be in the position they are in now. The half measures have, ultimately, led to this situation. They should have gone harder, earlier. 

Also, while talking about economic consequences, it's not the loans for stimulus now that worries me, it's the cost of healthcare the untold number of people who are forecast to have long term health consequences. It's also the economic cost of losing so many working years of so many people, both from their untimely end, as well as reduced overall capacity. 

[GboroRam]

I thought raising taxes didn't work? Well apparently it didn't at the last election. Surely Covid means we need more tax cuts for the rich, so we can stimulate more income? 

[Gone]

9 hours ago, Albert said:

The pandemic has yet to run it's course. Imagine seeing a building on fire and telling the firefighters to take a break because 'there's plenty of building left'. 

Watching Sweden and saying 'that's the way to do it' is like seeing someone getting hit by a car crossing the road and going 'well, they lived, so that's how you're meant to cross the road. 

They've had 57.74 deaths per 100,000 population, which is abysmal compared to their neighbours: 11.18 for Denmark, 5.08 for Norway, 11.41 for Germany, and 6.22 for Finland. Their numbers are appalling. 

What's worse is that their economy is still in the toilet through it all. At -8.3% GDP growth in the 2nd quarter, they compare poorly with Finland (-5.2) and Norway (-5.3), in line with Denmark (-8.5%) and little better than Germany (-11.7%). The bigger picture is yet to play out for them too in the economic sense, which any hope of them controlling the disease and reaching the 'travel bubble' stage being virtually zero. 

See above, Sweden's numbers are appalling. 

I would be very interested to read a peer reviewed article that suggests that lockdowns only delay deaths. Where I am at the moment, they've gone the other way, and been highly successful. The United Kingdom is running at 63.26 deaths per 100,000 people, while here we're at 3.49, and with a trend that's becoming flatter by the day. More than half the country is virtually free of the virus at this time too, and the controls have been able to successfully stop outbreaks as they happen. This idea that 'they only delay deaths' is bizarre, and at it's core, the very concept put further is a strange one. Most modern medicine is just about delaying deaths. Following the same logic, we shouldn't treat any cancers that metastasize; it's just delaying death. 

Restrictions were what has saved all those extra lives to this point, and without further restrictions, the UK will run the risk of a major second wave. The numbers are coming back up already. 

Also, calling this disease 'like the flu' is pants on head stuff. The worst ever years for the flu don't even reach 650,000, and these are endemic diseases that are totaled together, not one disease that's hit only a fraction of the World's population so far. At this time, the Covid-19 death toll, from less than a year, is already at that 1 million mark, and is generally accepted as a vast underestimate. 

Oh know they’ve boosted their ranks ? another one to wind up (rubs hands together)

[Gone]

7 hours ago, Eddie said:

It's all a plot, isn't it? By crikey, it's a good job we have enlightened people like you who can tear their way through the clouds of propaganda. Who's behind it all - Gates, Soros or the Rothschilds - or is there, perchance, some other puppet-master?

Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor?

No plot, no conspiracy it’s just not the disaster and house on fire scenario you and you’re the crew are making it out to be.......again the cure we are putting in place is more dangerous than the virus, that is all. So snipe away oh clever one 

[rynny]

On 25/09/2020 at 16:11, TexasRam said:

If I stumbled passed a public house at 2230 and noticed several folk still in there, then I definitely would ................carry on walking on mind my own business, I really hope most people would to be honest 

As someone who works in a pub I would urge you to report them. Why should they get rewarded for breaking the law, whilst other establishments run the risk of going out of business. Why is that fair? 

[Albert]

38 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

No plot, no conspiracy it’s just not the disaster and house on fire scenario you and you’re the crew are making it out to be.......again the cure we are putting in place is more dangerous than the virus, that is all. So snipe away oh clever one 

By current infection fatality rate numbers, 0.5-1.0% being the range given current information, letting this burn certainly isn't an option for any sane person. For the UK alone, that would be in excess of 200k deaths to reach herd immunity for low estimates of both IFR and herd immunity requirements. 

Equally, it's not 'the cure' doing the damage that you're whinging about, it's the loss of consumer confidence from the virus. People aren't just going to magically start trying to go out and spend again because someone decrees 'granny ain't worth saving anymore, go to the pub lads'. The best route to economic recovery is wrest control of the situation first, it's the one thing that's been shown to work on that front, and there are now plenty of examples to look to. 

Basically, your entire argument is blaming the doctors for you getting sick. Yes, doctors tend to be involved once people are sick, but sending them away isn't making anyone better. 

[Gone]

1 minute ago, Albert said:

By current infection fatality rate numbers, 0.5-1.0% being the range given current information, letting this burn certainly isn't an option for any sane person. For the UK alone, that would be in excess of 200k deaths to reach herd immunity for low estimates of both IFR and herd immunity requirements. 

Equally, it's not 'the cure' doing the damage that you're whinging about, it's the loss of consumer confidence from the virus. People aren't just going to magically start trying to go out and spend again because someone decrees 'granny ain't worth saving anymore, go to the pub lads'. The best route to economic recovery is wrest control of the situation first, it's the one thing that's been shown to work on that front, and there are now plenty of examples to look to. 

Basically, your entire argument is blaming the doctors for you getting sick. Yes, doctors tend to be involved once people are sick, but sending them away isn't making anyone better. 

Oh god you really are a doom and gloom merchant aren’t you. Where are your death rate figures from?
 

Unfortunately  your argument is flawed. Data is clearly showing It’s just not happening this time around, and not just here in any country that’s seen an increase in cases (because they are testing more btw). 
 

Also lack of consumer confidence is due to scaremongering and mass hysteria from the MSM and likes of yourself etc imo 

[GboroRam]

25 minutes ago, Albert said:

By current infection fatality rate numbers, 0.5-1.0% being the range given current information, letting this burn certainly isn't an option for any non-misguided person.

Corrected for @Eddie's sake.

[Uptherams]

8 hours ago, Eddie said:

It's all a plot, isn't it? By crikey, it's a good job we have enlightened people like you who can tear their way through the clouds of propaganda. Who's behind it all - Gates, Soros or the Rothschilds - or is there, perchance, some other puppet-master?

Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor?

?? You guys always do this. Why do you conflate people who are centrist with centrist views and opinions with the extremists of the political spectrum? Show us anyone in this thread saying any of that. 

 

 

[Uptherams]

@TexasRamIt is like these guys read what you write, then go off and read Facebook posts with people saying all kinds of crazy stuff and come back and imprint that craziness here. 

They genuinely think people like us think the Queen is a lizard and 5g is hacking our minds and health worldwide. ???

[Gone]

6 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

@TexasRamIt is like these guys read what you write, then go off and read Facebook posts with people saying all kinds of crazy stuff and come back and imprint that craziness here. 

They genuinely think people like us think the Queen is a lizard and 5g is hacking our minds and health worldwide. ???

It’s just a defence mechanism they use as they are not used to an alternative view. Unfortunately when they shout loud enough, they only hear their own voices. Sad really. 
 

Anyway are you telling me the Queen isn’t a Lizard? ?????