Bob The Badger Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 The year after he become Derby manager we scored 1 less point. Now, I'm sure there will be some old-timers who will say, 'but yeh that was different, you could see what he was doing' but that's just hindsight bias with probably a false memory thrown in for good luck. Cloughie knew the football league and he knew where the cheap talent was. He did not have his best three players (maybe four if you know add Keogh to the list) ripped away from him with no time to respond before a new season kicked off. You cannot ignore the above fact. NO team in the Championship could recover from that kind of blow. Hell, most Premier League teams would struggle even with their bloated squads. I'm amazed at the amount of people who claimed to be for stability with other managers who when they were fired, but have given up on Cocu already. Until the Wigan game he won't have been manager for as many games as even Pearson. About the only thing we can be sure of at the moment, is that we are without doubt playing poorly, and it is concerning. I honestly have no clue whether he'll turn it around or not. However, it's ridiculous to say you're a believer in continuity, and then say with the next breath, you want a guy who has managed only 13-games and started with almost every conceivable card stacked against him, fired. I'm confident that Mel will talked to a lot of people before hiring him and was convinced he'd work out. As such, and presuming it doesn't end up in relegation, I'd like to give Cocu an off season to see if he can work things out. The alternative is, yet again, we roll the dice and start all over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbles Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Good read that was Bob, cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlastoEls Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Spot on this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I thought i saw a few comments/interviews/articles early in Cocu's reign saying a part of the attraction at least was his readiness to bring the youngsters through. And wasn't the picture of his assistant encouraging young Jason Knight just as he was about to come on v Huddersfield well-liked and commented on favourably. So i don't know whether it is just me, but that seems to be gently drifting backwards and we're persisting with the old guard who are attracting greater derision as they turn in miserable performance after miserable performance. I realise Forest away wasn't any better but i thought the hope was the lads would shown some learning and slowly improve. With our established players, they don't seem to improve at all. Or learn. It may be this turning away from the internal rebuild approach which might ultimately cost Cocu - if we feel our signed players show so little invested in the club but keep on picking them then we only have ourselves to blame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevin Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 20 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said: The year after he become Derby manager we scored 1 less point. Now, I'm sure there will be some old-timers who will say, 'but yeh that was different, you could see what he was doing' but that's just hindsight bias with probably a false memory thrown in for good luck. Cloughie knew the football league and he knew where the cheap talent was. He did not have his best three players (maybe four if you know add Keogh to the list) ripped away from him with no time to respond before a new season kicked off. You cannot ignore the above fact. NO team in the Championship could recover from that kind of blow. Hell, most Premier League teams would struggle even with their bloated squads. I'm amazed at the amount of people who claimed to be for stability with other managers who when they were fired, but have given up on Cocu already. Until the Wigan game he won't have been manager for as many games as even Pearson. About the only thing we can be sure of at the moment, is that we are without doubt playing poorly, and it is concerning. I honestly have no clue whether he'll turn it around or not. However, it's ridiculous to say you're a believer in continuity, and then say with the next breath, you want a guy who has managed only 13-games and started with almost every conceivable card stacked against him, fired. I'm confident that Mel will talked to a lot of people before hiring him and was convinced he'd work out. As such, and presuming it doesn't end up in relegation, I'd like to give Cocu an off season to see if he can work things out. The alternative is, yet again, we roll the dice and start all over again. No, we can tell decent players when we see them ,I don't see many players of that calibre in this team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 10 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said: The year after he become Derby manager we scored 1 less point. Now, I'm sure there will be some old-timers who will say, 'but yeh that was different, you could see what he was doing' but that's just hindsight bias with probably a false memory thrown in for good luck. Cloughie knew the football league and he knew where the cheap talent was. He did not have his best three players (maybe four if you know add Keogh to the list) ripped away from him with no time to respond before a new season kicked off. You cannot ignore the above fact. NO team in the Championship could recover from that kind of blow. Hell, most Premier League teams would struggle even with their bloated squads. Most used players 18/19: Keogh - Out for the season Tomori - Back at Chelsea Wilson - At Bournemouth Bogle - Spent a lot of the season out injured. Still doesn't look fully fit Mount - Back at Chelsea Waghorn Marriott - Spent a lot of the season out injured Lawrence Bennett - A couple of niggles Nugent - Released. Now at Preston Johnson - Free to Blackburn Carson - Sitting at home for Man City Malone - A couple of niggles Bryson - Released. Now at Aberdeen Jozefzoon - A couple of niggles Holmes - Injured throughout preseason and had a few niggles since. Huddlestone - Now injured for a few months Roos Should we be surprised by our early season struggles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSD Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Look at the starting 11 last Saturday and see the mishmash of managers who bought these in. Roos - McClaren Bogle - Academy Davies - Rowett Clarke - Cocu Malone - Lampard Shinnie - Lampard Bielik - Cocu Waghorn - Lampard Paterson - Cocu Lawrence - Rowett Martin - Clough So that's a team made up of FIVE different management signings. And people wonder why Cocu isn't getting consistency. Only 3 of the players are his own. And the state of the bench, again a right blend of manager tenures. Madness getting rid of the bloke, it would get even worse if we have to go recruiting another manager. Give the man time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevin Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I think most people accept Cocu has been dealt a duff hand with player quality and poor replacements ,but its the lack of fitness ,effort ,team spirit and poor formations that are still a problem . I do believe there is a fundamental problem at the club,even if it's only a post Frank hangover [no pun intended]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 13 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: I thought i saw a few comments/interviews/articles early in Cocu's reign saying a part of the attraction at least was his readiness to bring the youngsters through. And wasn't the picture of his assistant encouraging young Jason Knight just as he was about to come on v Huddersfield well-liked and commented on favourably. So i don't know whether it is just me, but that seems to be gently drifting backwards and we're persisting with the old guard who are attracting greater derision as they turn in miserable performance after miserable performance. I realise Forest away wasn't any better but i thought the hope was the lads would shown some learning and slowly improve. With our established players, they don't seem to improve at all. Or learn. It may be this turning away from the internal rebuild approach which might ultimately cost Cocu - if we feel our signed players show so little invested in the club but keep on picking them then we only have ourselves to blame? Minutes to academy players so far (league only): Lowe - 756 Bogle - 432 Knight - 222 Bennett - 150 Buchanan - 136 Last season (inc playoffs): Bogle - 3755 Bennett - 1258 Lowe - 270 Bird - 112 Mitchell-Lawson - 7 Not only have we already seen as many academy players play for the first team as last season, we're more than on course for our academy players to play more minutes too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 32 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said: About the only thing we can be sure of at the moment, is that we are without doubt playing poorly, and it is concerning. We've been poor by our standards BUT I'd still argue we were better than Swansea and West Brom when we played them - Two of the current top three Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrm14 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 42 minutes ago, cheron85 said: We've been poor by our standards BUT I'd still argue we were better than Swansea and West Brom when we played them - Two of the current top three And we missed penalties against both of them. Had either of them gone in I reckon a lot on here would be singing a very different tune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IslandExile Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Van der MoodHoover said: I thought i saw a few comments/interviews/articles early in Cocu's reign saying a part of the attraction at least was his readiness to bring the youngsters through. I think the "common wisdom" is that it's better to do that when the team are playing well. But looking at @Ghost of Clough's stats above, he is playing the kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 1 hour ago, King Kevin said: I think most people accept Cocu has been dealt a duff hand with player quality and poor replacements ,but its the lack of fitness ,effort ,team spirit and poor formations that are still a problem . I do believe there is a fundamental problem at the club,even if it's only a post Frank hangover [no pun intended]. I agree Kev. There is a part of me that wants to start “spotting the workers” the consistent players that give it all game in game out. My gut feeling is that We don’t have as many as we should have. The ones that as the cliche goes “leave everything on the pitch” Waghorn and Shinnie probably, Keogh (but that’s over now) Curtiss probably and Duane certainly. Bielik not sure yet. there are a lot of maybe’s .. too many for my liking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Great thread. No one is seriously saying Cocu out are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richinspain Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 7 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: Great thread. No one is seriously saying Cocu out are they? Are you asking seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 4 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said: Most used players 18/19: Keogh - Out for the season Tomori - Back at Chelsea Wilson - At Bournemouth Bogle - Spent a lot of the season out injured. Still doesn't look fully fit Mount - Back at Chelsea Waghorn Marriott - Spent a lot of the season out injured Lawrence Bennett - A couple of niggles Nugent - Released. Now at Preston Johnson - Free to Blackburn Carson - Sitting at home for Man City Malone - A couple of niggles Bryson - Released. Now at Aberdeen Jozefzoon - A couple of niggles Holmes - Injured throughout preseason and had a few niggles since. Huddlestone - Now injured for a few months Roos Should we be surprised by our early season struggles? Were we somehow surprised that mount, Wilson and tomori left at the end of their loans? were we shocked that we had released nugent, Johnson, Bryson, and loaned out Carson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 43 minutes ago, richinspain said: Are you asking seriously? Lol good point. Hopefully few on here are though. Guess Social Media is full of rubbish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marriot Ram99 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 39 minutes ago, RamNut said: Were we somehow surprised that mount, Wilson and tomori left at the end of their loans? were we shocked that we had released nugent, Johnson, Bryson, and loaned out Carson? I agree, whilst it's not necessarily Cocu's fault as he came late, the people involved in our transfer dealings should have surely seen this coming and so far our summer signings look extremely inadequate for a team of our aspirations. I wouldn't be too mad at a midtable finish, buts its the manner of performance, come February/March if we are bottom half still and playing like that I will want him gone, still a lot of time to change things until that point though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Durden Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 I want Cocu to succeed, I really do. But he needs to start showing very quickly reasons why the club should retain him rather than dispense of his services - I would have been appalled if I was Mel Morris viewing Cocus teams performance on Saturday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NottsRam77 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 14 hours ago, SouthStandDan said: Look at the starting 11 last Saturday and see the mishmash of managers who bought these in. Roos - McClaren Bogle - Academy Davies - Rowett Clarke - Cocu Malone - Lampard Shinnie - Lampard Bielik - Cocu Waghorn - Lampard Paterson - Cocu Lawrence - Rowett Martin - Clough So that's a team made up of FIVE different management signings. And people wonder why Cocu isn't getting consistency. Only 3 of the players are his own. And the state of the bench, again a right blend of manager tenures. Madness getting rid of the bloke, it would get even worse if we have to go recruiting another manager. Give the man time. I totally agree with your point but Isnt that applicable to most sides these days such is the turnover in managers management has changed from back in the day, before managers would be given time to build a squad of their own now it’s all about getting the most out of what you’ve got by motivating and tactical expertise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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