Foundations

[Big Trav]

What we need to remember is also. Last season we were mighty at home but away we were shocking. The same is happening this season. Who remembers millwall away? Rotherham? Villa? Leeds? Ipswich?? We were shocking away from home and this is a recurring thing so we can’t blame cocu. It’s the players mentalities. Not cocu. He set out for the best team he could on Saturday and they let him down. 

[ramsbottom]

As I've alluded to in other threads, I'm all for giving Cocu time, but I really don't think he's going to get it, as the vocal minority ramp up the vitriol, and a lot of casual folk who only started showing up in the past couple of season will vote with their feet.  We know Mel is all for stability, and doesn't want to get rid of managers, but once it affects the bottom line, he probably will.  

Personally any season where you're having to replace 30 odd goals from departed players, with a lower budget, a manager new to the country/league,  your pre-season was truncated, and you've lost your best defender/captain for 18 months, finishing anywhere between 15th & 6th would be a commendable achievement. 

[Spanish]

21 minutes ago, Edtheram said:

I was watching the Blackburn game and was just thinking we spent 10 million on an unproven championship player. Bielik has great potential and quality but would it of been better to try a loan deal from Arsenal and see if he adjusts and then give Bradley a new contract and save 10m. 

where is the source of this £10m?  I believed at the time it was more like £7.5m with add ons.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Still a lot of money though.  I was a fan of BJ (oo err) but many were not and I think his contract extension was based on letting him go for free in the summer.  He was allegedly a high wage earner.  I agree though pity we couldn't find a way.

[GenBr]

4 minutes ago, Spanish said:

where is the source of this £10m?  I believed at the time it was more like £7.5m with add ons.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Still a lot of money though.  I was a fan of BJ (oo err) but many were not and I think his contract extension was based on letting him go for free in the summer.  He was allegedly a high wage earner.  I agree though pity we couldn't find a way.

The papers all reported it as £9.5 mill, but that included add-ons and whatnot. We did offer BJ a new deal, but it was on much lower wages, so he decided to go elsewhere.

[angieram]

5 minutes ago, Spanish said:

where is the source of this £10m?  I believed at the time it was more like £7.5m with add ons.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Still a lot of money though.  I was a fan of BJ (oo err) but many were not and I think his contract extension was based on letting him go for free in the summer.  He was allegedly a high wage earner.  I agree though pity we couldn't find a way.

Just this and although a few of us were firmly in Bradley's camp and saw what he brought to the side there were many more saying he wasn't good enough and needed to go. You've heard the phrase "beware of what you wish for" and a few of you might be thinking exactly that now (but I doubt it!)

Maybe he'd had enough of not being appreciated. I'm sure there are other Derby players feel like that too.

 

[GB SPORTS]

3 minutes ago, angieram said:

Just this and although a few of us were firmly in Bradley's camp and saw what he brought to the side there were many more saying he wasn't good enough and needed to go. You've heard the phrase "beware of what you wish for" and a few of you might be thinking exactly that now (but I doubt it!)

Maybe he'd had enough of not being appreciated. I'm sure there are other Derby players feel like that too.

 

Yep same for Johnny Russell as well. Never have replaced him yet.

[Spanish]

8 minutes ago, GenBr said:

The papers all reported it as £9.5 mill, but that included add-ons and whatnot. We did offer BJ a new deal, but it was on much lower wages, so he decided to go elsewhere.

wiki

On 2 August 2019, Bielik joined Derby County on a five-year contract.[29] The fee was undisclosed, but reported by the Telegraph as an initial fee of below Derby's record fee paid of £8 million, plus performance-related clauses that could take it "towards the £10 million mark".[30]

[Spanish]

9 minutes ago, GenBr said:

The papers all reported it as £9.5 mill, but that included add-ons and whatnot. We did offer BJ a new deal, but it was on much lower wages, so he decided to go elsewhere.

telegraph

It is understood that while the initial fee is under the previous transfer record of £8million for Matej Vydra, incentivised clauses on performance could edge the deal towards the £10million mark.

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

1 hour ago, RAMBOB said:

I made a very good career out of turning around poorly performing factories. In all of the cases i had to introduce then establish a new way of doing things that would turn the performance around to the benefit of the business and its owners. Absolutely one of the first jobs was to assess then weed out the managers/supervisors who couldnt or wouldnt change to my philosophy. This would include those who were too set in their ways (because they had done things the same way for years), the 'clique' group, (normally led by a gobshite) those that were in positions which they were clearly out of their depth, those that , maybe, wanted to change but clearly were not good enough and finally those that were lazy and just were happy to turn up and take the money every month without taking the responsibility and those that talked a good game but couldnt actually do it. Occasionally there were some who i realised could be developed and would react to my mentoring......even though this would take  time and even then they may not make the standard i was expecting.

This assessment, though a priority, took some months and even then to move or get shut of some took a lot longer and all the time the clock was ticking and if a factory doesnt perform, its costs are not in line with budgets etc and given the owners can get quite panicky, the axe can fall pretty quickly. 

Not exactly a Football Club like Derby County but a similar scenario.

In all cases I formulated a period that included a short term plan which bought me time to establish my own team and staff and working practices, outlining expectations and training as part of the implementation of a forward plan. This short term plan was often painful in that some days I would question if I was making any progress at all, but experience told me to stick at it and work to my overall strategy.

In nearly all cases i would say to the owners it would take x number of months or years....the average was probably 2 years. 

The moral of sharing my experience is that PC is in a similar position in my eyes......therefore, despite the frustrations lets support him and lower our expectations even for the short term which is this season. He has the pedigree and the experience.....and character to turn this team around. 

Mel knows this i am sure. PC will know what he has to do. This time next year is the time to measure progress. I guarantee the team will look completely different.

Good post and i agree he needs time but 2 years is a loooooong time in football. In factory time, 2 years is probably 24 months (best guess), in football it is more like 24 weeks (optimistic guess). Nowadays the length of contracts in football is just there to protecct the investment in employee X not much to do with how long you would expect the employee to work for a football club. David Moyes signed a 7 year contract with Man U..

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, BathRam72 said:

I agree, but could you please correct your grammar as well.

To be correct you should write can you stop SAYING 'will of' and not can you stop say.

 

Just saying

Fair point and you got me fair and square. Glass houses and all that.

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, Squid said:

Sorry mate, not very good with my English!

No worries. The quality of the points you were making far outweighed and grammatical errors. 

[GenBr]

28 minutes ago, Spanish said:

telegraph

It is understood that while the initial fee is under the previous transfer record of £8million for Matej Vydra, incentivised clauses on performance could edge the deal towards the £10million mark.

Yes, so exactly as I said then.

[SFox1993]

13 hours ago, Squid said:

It’s no exaggeration when I say some of the performances we have seen have been horrific, Brentford, Charlton, Forest (although that was a second string side) have been some of the worst games I’ve seen in a long time.

But when our fans turn on the players, the gaffer, sometimes it’s understandable but sometimes again it is outright ridiculous.

I’ll start by addressing my points about Philip Cocu, now I’m sure a few of you would of seen the points I have made preciously, however I’ll rehash them as I want to be able to exaggerate these and hopefully change folks opinions.

Cocu out? No. There is a reason that he is on a 4 year contract, and thats because Mel will of sat down with him and understood his visions and plans in the long term, rather than short term.

Sir Brian Clough, anyone remember him? of course you do, what a ridiculous question. Can you remember his first season? Derby County finished one place lower than the season before he was appointed, but he started to lay out the foundations for the long term... Do you really think Cocu is satisfied with the team he has? of course not! Why would he be?      

Cocu at PSV in his first season didn't do great either, but again, he started to lay out the foundations. And it’s safe to say thats what we should expect this season.

January transfer window, alongside Rooney I believe there will be signings, maybe loans, but still signings to bolster the squad.

When Cocu was appointed the idea was for the football to be like what we played under Lampard, we haven’t really seen that, but I think the reasoning behind some of the tactics that we have seen is because Cocu feels SOME of players wont be able to play how he wants, so would rather be abit more cautious.

I think once he’s sold some players and bought some players, then we will start to see a much improved brand of football.

I see a lot of people call for more youth in the team, Whilst I agree to a certain extent, the step up from u23 to first team is massive, It really is, I still think we will still see youth come through progressively but asking for them every game will just make things more difficult for ourselves.

Now I know things haven’t been great for the club so far, but please realise, this season isn’t going to be pretty, nor successful, but its about preparation for the long term. Now Phillip will of seen who’s good enough and who isn’t good enough, I’m sure he cant wait for January to come along, as its safe to say we need improvements.

All I ask is that we get behind the gaffer, it’s not going to be easy for him and I’m sure he’s just as pissed off as we was regarding the performance on Saturday.

Rome wasn’t built in a day, and a sufficient won’t be built in 5 months..

We’ve got another tough game on Wednesday against Wigan, we saw how they beat forest and they’ll be wanting to beat us too.

Lets back the club, loud and proud, because we’re Derby til we die.

I love this club and nothing will ever change that.

Uppa Phillip Cocu’s Derby County ? 

Amen , glad there is other Derby fans with the same mindset as me at the moment.

[Smyth_18]

58 minutes ago, EtoileSportiveDeDerby said:

 2 years is probably 24 months (best guess)

[AdamRam]

2 hours ago, angieram said:

Just this and although a few of us were firmly in Bradley's camp and saw what he brought to the side there were many more saying he wasn't good enough and needed to go. You've heard the phrase "beware of what you wish for" and a few of you might be thinking exactly that now (but I doubt it!)

Maybe he'd had enough of not being appreciated. I'm sure there are other Derby players feel like that too.

 

Or maybe it was just that Blackburn offered him more money and he decided to go there.

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

59 minutes ago, Smyth_18 said:

Did you do the maths or you guessed as well ? ?

[hintonsboots]

11 hours ago, Smyth_18 said:

I completely agree but maybe you should correct your grammar too.

To be correct you should type;

'To be correct you should type 'can you stop SAYING 'will of' and not can you stop say.''

Just saying.

(This is starting to get confusing with correct quotations).

I thought it was “as you say “

# RK 

[G STAR RAM]

@Squid good post.

The one thing I cant reconcile though, you say he is laying the foundations but then say he will probably make loan signings in January?

For me, laying foundations is about getting a spine of a team to build around, and blooding other players around them.

The spine of our team is currently made up of:-

Roos - showing no signs of improvement and costing us goals on a regular basis. His backup is a loan player

Clarke/Davies - 1 a loan player, 1 coming to the end of his career. Neither overly comfortable with our style of play

Bielek - Showing glimpses that he could be a good player

Martin - Started well on his return but you have to wonder about his effectiveness in a team playing this way, we are just not creating chances

In terms of blooding players, I think it's been disappointing.

Lowe had a good run at right back and deserved a shot at left back but seems to have lost his place for no apparent reason.

Knight has looked good from what I've seen but cannot get a run of games.

Sibley appears to have been overlooked completely.

Mitchell Lawson not getting a look in despite the fact that Lawrence continues to play despite having a supposed drink problem!

It's way too early for anyone to be calling for Cocu's head but its definitely not too early to be asking questions about what direction we are heading in and what we are trying to achieve.

[Ghost of Clough]

59 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

@Squid good post.

The one thing I cant reconcile though, you say he is laying the foundations but then say he will probably make loan signings in January?

For me, laying foundations is about getting a spine of a team to build around, and blooding other players around them.

Getting key loan signings in (such as a CB) temporarily plugs a major weakness. It then allows us to play who we want further up the field without having to cover for that major weakness, or allows others to push further up the field. 

59 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

The spine of our team is currently made up of:-

Roos - showing no signs of improvement and costing us goals on a regular basis. His backup is a loan player

Clarke/Davies - 1 a loan player, 1 coming to the end of his career. Neither overly comfortable with our style of play

Bielek - Showing glimpses that he could be a good player

Martin - Started well on his return but you have to wonder about his effectiveness in a team playing this way, we are just not creating chances

In terms of blooding players, I think it's been disappointing.

Lowe had a good run at right back and deserved a shot at left back but seems to have lost his place for no apparent reason. It was harsh to drop Lowe but it would have been just as harsh on Malone who has been one of our best players since he came back into the side against Cardiff.

Knight has looked good from what I've seen but cannot get a run of games. Appeared in 8 of our 12 league games so far. Obviously behind Bielik and Hudd, and currently behind Holmes and Shinnie but about on par with Dowell. He'll get more chances if he continues to improve.

Sibley appears to have been overlooked completely. He's been told to control his game and not let the aggressive side of his game take over

Mitchell Lawson not getting a look in despite the fact that Lawrence continues to play despite having a supposed drink problem! Lawrence is still our best wide attacking player

It's way too early for anyone to be calling for Cocu's head but its definitely not too early to be asking questions about what direction we are heading in and what we are trying to achieve.

See comments above. As I've posted elsewhere. we've already seen as many academy players feature this season as we did last year. In terms of minutes, they're projected to have more game time.

 

[IlsonDerby]

23 hours ago, King Kevin said:

Don't agree with this a good manager plays to the strengths of the players he currently has .You refine the system when you ave the new ones in place .Ridiculous making players play in a way that doesn't suit them ,good way to lose the dressing room aka NP.

That's not to say some don't need replacing because there are a few that are quite substandard for this division .Good post.

We’ve been a team that’s mostly played possession based football in a 433 or 4231 for quite some time now. 

It’s not like Cocu has come in and said ‘we’re playing 352 when we have 2 centre backs and only 1 wing back is it?? 
 

The players we’ve got should be able to adapt to what he’s asking to a better standard than currently on show and they’re not at all replacing lack of ability to execute the plan with hard work which is what winds me up. 

 

This next part is not replying to you, just a bit of a rant so apologies that you’re quoted in it. 

Wanna take time to remind people that last season we played poorly in quite a lot of games. We turned up to a few big games which papered over a lot of cracks as well as 3 ridiculous loan signings getting us into the play offs. 

As long as we don’t look like going down I say stick with Cocu and get rid of these tragic excuses for players who aren’t up to it or who aren’t willing to work hard enough to get there.  The way I see it is we have a manager who did it all as a player for Barca and Netherlands and then did an incredible job with PSV. You’re telling me a bloke as smart as him can’t simply adapt to the championship? I won’t believe that.