Foundations

[Bubbles]

It’s no exaggeration when I say some of the performances we have seen have been horrific, Brentford, Charlton, Forest (although that was a second string side) have been some of the worst games I’ve seen in a long time.

But when our fans turn on the players, the gaffer, sometimes it’s understandable but sometimes again it is outright ridiculous.

I’ll start by addressing my points about Philip Cocu, now I’m sure a few of you would of seen the points I have made preciously, however I’ll rehash them as I want to be able to exaggerate these and hopefully change folks opinions.

Cocu out? No. There is a reason that he is on a 4 year contract, and thats because Mel will of sat down with him and understood his visions and plans in the long term, rather than short term.

Sir Brian Clough, anyone remember him? of course you do, what a ridiculous question. Can you remember his first season? Derby County finished one place lower than the season before he was appointed, but he started to lay out the foundations for the long term... Do you really think Cocu is satisfied with the team he has? of course not! Why would he be?      

Cocu at PSV in his first season didn't do great either, but again, he started to lay out the foundations. And it’s safe to say thats what we should expect this season.

January transfer window, alongside Rooney I believe there will be signings, maybe loans, but still signings to bolster the squad.

When Cocu was appointed the idea was for the football to be like what we played under Lampard, we haven’t really seen that, but I think the reasoning behind some of the tactics that we have seen is because Cocu feels SOME of players wont be able to play how he wants, so would rather be abit more cautious.

I think once he’s sold some players and bought some players, then we will start to see a much improved brand of football.

I see a lot of people call for more youth in the team, Whilst I agree to a certain extent, the step up from u23 to first team is massive, It really is, I still think we will still see youth come through progressively but asking for them every game will just make things more difficult for ourselves.

Now I know things haven’t been great for the club so far, but please realise, this season isn’t going to be pretty, nor successful, but its about preparation for the long term. Now Phillip will of seen who’s good enough and who isn’t good enough, I’m sure he cant wait for January to come along, as its safe to say we need improvements.

All I ask is that we get behind the gaffer, it’s not going to be easy for him and I’m sure he’s just as pissed off as we was regarding the performance on Saturday.

Rome wasn’t built in a day, and a sufficient won’t be built in 5 months..

We’ve got another tough game on Wednesday against Wigan, we saw how they beat forest and they’ll be wanting to beat us too.

Lets back the club, loud and proud, because we’re Derby til we die.

I love this club and nothing will ever change that.

Uppa Phillip Cocu’s Derby County ? 

[RamNut]

People keep mentioning that brian clough's first season wasn't great.

why is that of any relevance?

he had already assembled 80% of the greatest team we ever had.

He added les green, willie carlin, and dave mackay to that group. Three of the best players we've ever had. 

I can't see any parallels. 

You might as well pick any crap season as a guide.

[Steve How Hard?]

Why do you build me up, buttercup?

[IslandExile]

@Squid great post ? 

@RamNut No transfer windows in those days, BC could build the team during the season. Cocu cannot and for reasons that have been stated over and over, the preseason he had was very short.

To you and all the other "Cocu out" people - what are you expecting given the circumstances, the loss of the 3 loanees, Keogh, Marriott out etc?

I'm sure you'd all be happy with Warnock, Rowett or Wee Billy in charge. I despair.

[RamNut]

5 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

@Squid great post ? 

@RamNut No transfer windows in those days, BC could build the team during the season. Cocu cannot and for reasons that have been stated over and over, the preseason he had was very short.

To you and all the other "Cocu out" people - what are you expecting given the circumstances, the loss of the 3 loanees, Keogh, Marriott out etc?

I'm sure you'd all be happy with Warnock, Rowett or Wee Billy in charge. I despair.

I'll bet you £50 you can't find a single post where i say cocu out.

 

[IslandExile]

3 minutes ago, RamNut said:

I'll bet you £50 you can't find a single post where i say cocu out.

 

Please accept my apologies. I must have confused you with someone else.

Nevertheless, there are a surprising - to me anyway - number of people calling for a change.

It's not surprising given some of the performances but it is surprising given that we all knew the squad that Cocu inherited and the lack of time he has had to change it.

Anyway @RamNut, once again I am sorry for misrepresenting your view.

[REDCAR]

Nice read Squid ???

[RAMBOB]

I made a very good career out of turning around poorly performing factories. In all of the cases i had to introduce then establish a new way of doing things that would turn the performance around to the benefit of the business and its owners. Absolutely one of the first jobs was to assess then weed out the managers/supervisors who couldnt or wouldnt change to my philosophy. This would include those who were too set in their ways (because they had done things the same way for years), the 'clique' group, (normally led by a gobshite) those that were in positions which they were clearly out of their depth, those that , maybe, wanted to change but clearly were not good enough and finally those that were lazy and just were happy to turn up and take the money every month without taking the responsibility and those that talked a good game but couldnt actually do it. Occasionally there were some who i realised could be developed and would react to my mentoring......even though this would take  time and even then they may not make the standard i was expecting.

This assessment, though a priority, took some months and even then to move or get shut of some took a lot longer and all the time the clock was ticking and if a factory doesnt perform, its costs are not in line with budgets etc and given the owners can get quite panicky, the axe can fall pretty quickly. 

Not exactly a Football Club like Derby County but a similar scenario.

In all cases I formulated a period that included a short term plan which bought me time to establish my own team and staff and working practices, outlining expectations and training as part of the implementation of a forward plan. This short term plan was often painful in that some days I would question if I was making any progress at all, but experience told me to stick at it and work to my overall strategy.

In nearly all cases i would say to the owners it would take x number of months or years....the average was probably 2 years. 

The moral of sharing my experience is that PC is in a similar position in my eyes......therefore, despite the frustrations lets support him and lower our expectations even for the short term which is this season. He has the pedigree and the experience.....and character to turn this team around. 

Mel knows this i am sure. PC will know what he has to do. This time next year is the time to measure progress. I guarantee the team will look completely different.

[Tamworthram]

10 hours ago, Squid said:

It’s no exaggeration when I say some of the performances we have seen have been horrific, Brentford, Charlton, Forest (although that was a second string side) have been some of the worst games I’ve seen in a long time.

But when our fans turn on the players, the gaffer, sometimes it’s understandable but sometimes again it is outright ridiculous.

I’ll start by addressing my points about Philip Cocu, now I’m sure a few of you would of seen the points I have made preciously, however I’ll rehash them as I want to be able to exaggerate these and hopefully change folks opinions.

Cocu out? No. There is a reason that he is on a 4 year contract, and thats because Mel will of sat down with him and understood his visions and plans in the long term, rather than short term.

Sir Brian Clough, anyone remember him? of course you do, what a ridiculous question. Can you remember his first season? Derby County finished one place lower than the season before he was appointed, but he started to lay out the foundations for the long term... Do you really think Cocu is satisfied with the team he has? of course not! Why would he be?      

Cocu at PSV in his first season didn't do great either, but again, he started to lay out the foundations. And it’s safe to say thats what we should expect this season.

January transfer window, alongside Rooney I believe there will be signings, maybe loans, but still signings to bolster the squad.

When Cocu was appointed the idea was for the football to be like what we played under Lampard, we haven’t really seen that, but I think the reasoning behind some of the tactics that we have seen is because Cocu feels SOME of players wont be able to play how he wants, so would rather be abit more cautious.

I think once he’s sold some players and bought some players, then we will start to see a much improved brand of football.

I see a lot of people call for more youth in the team, Whilst I agree to a certain extent, the step up from u23 to first team is massive, It really is, I still think we will still see youth come through progressively but asking for them every game will just make things more difficult for ourselves.

Now I know things haven’t been great for the club so far, but please realise, this season isn’t going to be pretty, nor successful, but its about preparation for the long term. Now Phillip will of seen who’s good enough and who isn’t good enough, I’m sure he cant wait for January to come along, as its safe to say we need improvements.

All I ask is that we get behind the gaffer, it’s not going to be easy for him and I’m sure he’s just as pissed off as we was regarding the performance on Saturday.

Rome wasn’t built in a day, and a sufficient won’t be built in 5 months..

We’ve got another tough game on Wednesday against Wigan, we saw how they beat forest and they’ll be wanting to beat us too.

Lets back the club, loud and proud, because we’re Derby til we die.

I love this club and nothing will ever change that.

Uppa Phillip Cocu’s Derby County ? 

Excellent post. Just one minor criticism, can you stop say "will of" and say "will have" please? ?

[King Kevin]

10 hours ago, Squid said:

It’s no exaggeration when I say some of the performances we have seen have been horrific, Brentford, Charlton, Forest (although that was a second string side) have been some of the worst games I’ve seen in a long time.

But when our fans turn on the players, the gaffer, sometimes it’s understandable but sometimes again it is outright ridiculous.

I’ll start by addressing my points about Philip Cocu, now I’m sure a few of you would of seen the points I have made preciously, however I’ll rehash them as I want to be able to exaggerate these and hopefully change folks opinions.

Cocu out? No. There is a reason that he is on a 4 year contract, and thats because Mel will of sat down with him and understood his visions and plans in the long term, rather than short term.

Sir Brian Clough, anyone remember him? of course you do, what a ridiculous question. Can you remember his first season? Derby County finished one place lower than the season before he was appointed, but he started to lay out the foundations for the long term... Do you really think Cocu is satisfied with the team he has? of course not! Why would he be?      

Cocu at PSV in his first season didn't do great either, but again, he started to lay out the foundations. And it’s safe to say thats what we should expect this season.

January transfer window, alongside Rooney I believe there will be signings, maybe loans, but still signings to bolster the squad.

When Cocu was appointed the idea was for the football to be like what we played under Lampard, we haven’t really seen that, but I think the reasoning behind some of the tactics that we have seen is because Cocu feels SOME of players wont be able to play how he wants, so would rather be abit more cautious.

I think once he’s sold some players and bought some players, then we will start to see a much improved brand of football.

I see a lot of people call for more youth in the team, Whilst I agree to a certain extent, the step up from u23 to first team is massive, It really is, I still think we will still see youth come through progressively but asking for them every game will just make things more difficult for ourselves.

Now I know things haven’t been great for the club so far, but please realise, this season isn’t going to be pretty, nor successful, but its about preparation for the long term. Now Phillip will of seen who’s good enough and who isn’t good enough, I’m sure he cant wait for January to come along, as its safe to say we need improvements.

All I ask is that we get behind the gaffer, it’s not going to be easy for him and I’m sure he’s just as pissed off as we was regarding the performance on Saturday.

Rome wasn’t built in a day, and a sufficient won’t be built in 5 months..

We’ve got another tough game on Wednesday against Wigan, we saw how they beat forest and they’ll be wanting to beat us too.

Lets back the club, loud and proud, because we’re Derby til we die.

I love this club and nothing will ever change that.

Uppa Phillip Cocu’s Derby County ? 

Don't agree with this a good manager plays to the strengths of the players he currently has .You refine the system when you ave the new ones in place .Ridiculous making players play in a way that doesn't suit them ,good way to lose the dressing room aka NP.

That's not to say some don't need replacing because there are a few that are quite substandard for this division .Good post.

[Bubbles]

5 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Excellent post. Just one minor criticism, can you stop say "will of" and say "will have" please? ?

Sorry mate, not very good with my English!

[BathRam72]

11 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Excellent post. Just one minor criticism, can you stop say "will of" and say "will have" please? ?

I agree, but could you please correct your grammar as well.

To be correct you should write can you stop SAYING 'will of' and not can you stop say.

 

Just saying

[Edtheram]

1. You mention Cocu's tactics and visions for the side, so far I am yet to see anything positive really. We haven't improved at all so far we have only regressed. We lose 3-0 at Brentford and then churn out the same abject performance at Charlton. Cocu has to take part of the blame. I can handle mid table but as long as im seeing performances which fill me with confidence for the season ahead and next, so far it doesn't at all.

2. Mel might well of handed out a 4 year contract, for me that is far too long for a manager as anything can happen in football. Mel has made mistakes before so could this be another?

3. Im pretty sure i heard the Cloughie comparison with Rowett and Lampard, it changes nothing that so far we look lost.

4. Weve sold a few and bought a few, Martin is in from the cold and on showing so far i cant see how Bradley Johnson couldn't of done a Job for this side. Would of saved us some money for decent attackers and CB's.

 

[Bubbles]

7 minutes ago, Edtheram said:

1. You mention Cocu's tactics and visions for the side, so far I am yet to see anything positive really. We haven't improved at all so far we have only regressed. We lose 3-0 at Brentford and then churn out the same abject performance at Charlton. Cocu has to take part of the blame. I can handle mid table but as long as im seeing performances which fill me with confidence for the season ahead and next, so far it doesn't at all.

2. Mel might well of handed out a 4 year contract, for me that is far too long for a manager as anything can happen in football. Mel has made mistakes before so could this be another?

3. Im pretty sure i heard the Cloughie comparison with Rowett and Lampard, it changes nothing that so far we look lost.

4. Weve sold a few and bought a few, Martin is in from the cold and on showing so far i cant see how Bradley Johnson couldn't of done a Job for this side. Would of saved us some money for decent attackers and CB's.

 

Good points, mate.

1. I agree, we haven't seen much positive at all, but what can you do with a mid table team? we're pushing out mid table performances because thats where we are as a squad right now.

2. Again, I agree with this, 4 years is too long for a manager and I was skeptical at first, but if behind the scenes they have a long term plan, then i'll get behind it.

3. I wasn't aware anyone used the same comparison (I'm fairly new to this forum) - but I see where you're coming from.

4. I do think the loans we brought in (Pato & Hamer) weren't first choice and were rather last minute panic loans, in Jan and summer i'm sure we will see more of a shakeup.

We miss Bradley Johnson at the mo, he was absolutely quality in the second half of last season and seriously fought for his place. I think we regret letting him go as he has that bite and aggression we are missing at the moment.

[OoooMarkWright]

Imagine Lampard hadn’t gone to Chelsea, but was missing Keogh, Marriott, Mount, Tomori, Wilson, Johnson. Would he have the squad performing better than what they are so far? I doubt it, we’d be mid table at best. The squad is sub-standard. Performances have been poor thus far, we need to improve, Cocu needs to improve, but I’m sure we will given time. 

[Edtheram]

20 minutes ago, Squid said:

 

We miss Bradley Johnson at the mo, he was absolutely quality in the second half of last season and seriously fought for his place. I think we regret letting him go as he has that bite and aggression we are missing at the moment.

I was watching the Blackburn game and was just thinking we spent 10 million on an unproven championship player. Bielik has great potential and quality but would it of been better to try a loan deal from Arsenal and see if he adjusts and then give Bradley a new contract and save 10m. 

[Smyth_18]

1 hour ago, RAMBOB said:

I made a very good career out of turning around poorly performing factories. In all of the cases i had to introduce then establish a new way of doing things that would turn the performance around to the benefit of the business and its owners. Absolutely one of the first jobs was to assess then weed out the managers/supervisors who couldnt or wouldnt change to my philosophy. This would include those who were too set in their ways (because they had done things the same way for years), the 'clique' group, (normally led by a gobshite) those that were in positions which they were clearly out of their depth, those that , maybe, wanted to change but clearly were not good enough and finally those that were lazy and just were happy to turn up and take the money every month without taking the responsibility and those that talked a good game but couldnt actually do it. Occasionally there were some who i realised could be developed and would react to my mentoring......even though this would take  time and even then they may not make the standard i was expecting.

This assessment, though a priority, took some months and even then to move or get shut of some took a lot longer and all the time the clock was ticking and if a factory doesnt perform, its costs are not in line with budgets etc and given the owners can get quite panicky, the axe can fall pretty quickly. 

Not exactly a Football Club like Derby County but a similar scenario.

In all cases I formulated a period that included a short term plan which bought me time to establish my own team and staff and working practices, outlining expectations and training as part of the implementation of a forward plan. This short term plan was often painful in that some days I would question if I was making any progress at all, but experience told me to stick at it and work to my overall strategy.

In nearly all cases i would say to the owners it would take x number of months or years....the average was probably 2 years. 

The moral of sharing my experience is that PC is in a similar position in my eyes......therefore, despite the frustrations lets support him and lower our expectations even for the short term which is this season. He has the pedigree and the experience.....and character to turn this team around. 

Mel knows this i am sure. PC will know what he has to do. This time next year is the time to measure progress. I guarantee the team will look completely different.

Rambob. You are now up to 5/1 to replace Cocu next week. But scrap your 2 year philosophy. We want consistent wins and we want them now.

[Smyth_18]

49 minutes ago, BathRam72 said:

I agree, but could you please correct your grammar as well.

To be correct you should write can you stop SAYING 'will of' and not can you stop say.

 

Just saying

I completely agree but maybe you should correct your grammar too.

To be correct you should type;

'To be correct you should type 'can you stop SAYING 'will of' and not can you stop say.''

Just saying.

(This is starting to get confusing with correct quotations).

[ThePrisoner]

5 minutes ago, Smyth_18 said:

Just saying.

I think you mean 'just say'.

[Day]

11 hours ago, Squid said:

It’s no exaggeration when I say some of the performances we have seen have been horrific, Brentford, Charlton, Forest (although that was a second string side) have been some of the worst games I’ve seen in a long time.

But when our fans turn on the players, the gaffer, sometimes it’s understandable but sometimes again it is outright ridiculous.

I’ll start by addressing my points about Philip Cocu, now I’m sure a few of you would of seen the points I have made preciously, however I’ll rehash them as I want to be able to exaggerate these and hopefully change folks opinions.

Cocu out? No. There is a reason that he is on a 4 year contract, and thats because Mel will of sat down with him and understood his visions and plans in the long term, rather than short term.

Sir Brian Clough, anyone remember him? of course you do, what a ridiculous question. Can you remember his first season? Derby County finished one place lower than the season before he was appointed, but he started to lay out the foundations for the long term... Do you really think Cocu is satisfied with the team he has? of course not! Why would he be?      

Cocu at PSV in his first season didn't do great either, but again, he started to lay out the foundations. And it’s safe to say thats what we should expect this season.

January transfer window, alongside Rooney I believe there will be signings, maybe loans, but still signings to bolster the squad.

When Cocu was appointed the idea was for the football to be like what we played under Lampard, we haven’t really seen that, but I think the reasoning behind some of the tactics that we have seen is because Cocu feels SOME of players wont be able to play how he wants, so would rather be abit more cautious.

I think once he’s sold some players and bought some players, then we will start to see a much improved brand of football.

I see a lot of people call for more youth in the team, Whilst I agree to a certain extent, the step up from u23 to first team is massive, It really is, I still think we will still see youth come through progressively but asking for them every game will just make things more difficult for ourselves.

Now I know things haven’t been great for the club so far, but please realise, this season isn’t going to be pretty, nor successful, but its about preparation for the long term. Now Phillip will of seen who’s good enough and who isn’t good enough, I’m sure he cant wait for January to come along, as its safe to say we need improvements.

All I ask is that we get behind the gaffer, it’s not going to be easy for him and I’m sure he’s just as pissed off as we was regarding the performance on Saturday.

Rome wasn’t built in a day, and a sufficient won’t be built in 5 months..

We’ve got another tough game on Wednesday against Wigan, we saw how they beat forest and they’ll be wanting to beat us too.

Lets back the club, loud and proud, because we’re Derby til we die.

I love this club and nothing will ever change that.

Uppa Phillip Cocu’s Derby County ? 

Great post. One that sadly shouldn’t need making. Was always going to be bumps in the road, we’re 12 games in.