The Politics Thread 2019

[McRamFan]

14 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Out of interest why do you think Islamophobia exists?

Because this country has a very thin racist streak running through it, and when agitated, it becomes very vocal.  Before you over react, allow me to explain.

My parents where born in Ireland and came to the UK as there where more jobs than people, or so they where told, when they where 18.  The fact was that the jobs available where jobs the 'British' didn't want to do.  My parents and I where subjected to racism, called gippo/gypoo, thieving paddy, terrorist, job taker and a few that wouldn't get through the filter.

Even in the late 70's, when there was a fuel shortage, and instead of going to Ireland for our summer holidays, we went to Skeggy, and about half the BnB's had signs saying 'No Blacks, No Irish and No Dogs'.  It lasted well into the 80's and has pretty much died out, as the extremists have found another minority to pick on.

[GboroRam]

15 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

Very poor maths there.

A drop from 1.76m to 1.39m is a fall of 0.37m.

Which as a percentage of 1.76 is a tad over 20%. This is the mathematical convention for showing increases and falls...expressing them relative to 9stsrt point

Which is a bit less than a quarter. 

Not having a pop st your good self, but either the BBC chart is showing something different to the headline or someone doesn't want to follow the mathematical convention....

Per the linked article, drop from April last year (compare year on year like-for-like).

[eddie]

13 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

Very poor maths there.

A drop from 1.76m to 1.39m is a fall of 0.37m.

Which as a percentage of 1.76 is a tad over 20%. This is the mathematical convention for showing increases and falls...expressing them relative to 9stsrt point

Which is a bit less than a quarter. 

Not having a pop st your good self, but either the BBC chart is showing something different to the headline or someone doesn't want to follow the mathematical convention....

The headline related to the fall in output for a single month compared to the same month in 2018 - the graph relates to the 'rolling year' of production figures ending at the end of each April.  The message is the same - Brexit has already been an appalling burden for industry in the UK, and we haven't even left yet.

[ronnieronalde]

50 minutes ago, maxjam said:

There are plenty of articles and studies online that talk about censorship creep, which is being exacerbated by the social media age we live in - you should look into it.

If you can do it without the disparaging sanctimonious comments I'd be more inclined to discuss it with you further, but its honestly not worth my time or effort.

I agree with that MJ but here's the quandary.

The "buying" of followers on social media, the creating of false accounts, the number of "bots"in use, the algorithms set up to make sure the message is one of repetition, figure and fact manipulation, it's everywhere.

Even TV news, you just need to see how many newsreaders repeat exactly the same phrases 1000's of times in order to hammer home any message they want us to take in. They repeat it so often it sticks.

The "sharia law" is taking over myth is one that is spread across social media like a cheap margarine. One prominent US congressman uses the phrase more than 1,200 times in one year on his twitter account alone. What is he trying to achieve there?

I don't think anyone really knows or trusts what is real news, real stats or real information anymore.

 

[maxjam]

24 minutes ago, tomsdubs said:

Can you point me to a left wing media giant? Would love to find one.

Nothing I say here will change anyone's mind, I'd suggest you do your own research.

I will give one example however.  Twitter, Facebook etc are social media giants, in this day and age they have far more reach and influence than traditional media.  The EDL, For Britain etc are banned.  Antifa however, despite recently being labelled a domestic terrorist group are not banned.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/01/antifa-charlottesville-violence-fbi-242235

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/antifa-domestic-terrorists-us-security-agencies-homeland-security-fbi-a7927881.html

https://www.facebook.com/antifaintl/

https://twitter.com/antifaintl

[GboroRam]

2 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Nothing I say here will change anyone's mind, I'd suggest you do your own research.

I will give one example however.  Twitter, Facebook etc are social media giants, in this day and age they have far more reach and influence than traditional media.  The EDL, For Britain etc are banned.  Antifa however, despite recently being labelled a domestic terrorist group are not banned.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/01/antifa-charlottesville-violence-fbi-242235

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/antifa-domestic-terrorists-us-security-agencies-homeland-security-fbi-a7927881.html

https://www.facebook.com/antifaintl/

https://twitter.com/antifaintl

Keep hearing about Antifa. Never met anyone from them. Why are they such big news?

I have seen the National Front, Combat 18, EDL and BNP though (along with others). Marching in the streets. Seen plenty of anti fascists, but nothing you'd say was organised under the name "Antifa". Unless you're broadly amalgamating all the anti fascist groups under this banner?

[tomsdubs]

3 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Nothing I say here will change anyone's mind, I'd suggest you do your own research.

I will give one example however.  Twitter, Facebook etc are social media giants, in this day and age they have far more reach and influence than traditional media.  The EDL, For Britain etc are banned.  Antifa however, despite recently being labelled a domestic terrorist group are not banned.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/01/antifa-charlottesville-violence-fbi-242235

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/antifa-domestic-terrorists-us-security-agencies-homeland-security-fbi-a7927881.html

https://www.facebook.com/antifaintl/

https://twitter.com/antifaintl

So going back to these left wing media giants, you got one for me? Far as I can tell right wing groups that don't break the racial hate rules are still on there. You just posted some stuff that really isn't centred in this country so the relevance is rather lacking. Don't recall any groups of antifa hounding racial minorities or beating up innocent guys standing by in the UK. Maybe you could link me to that?

[GboroRam]

4 minutes ago, tomsdubs said:

So going back to these left wing media giants, you got one for me? 

They mean the BBC, and perhaps the Guardian as a little one.

[Stive Pesley]

44 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

The ideology both sides are spreading isn't based on wanting to solve anything. It's based on wanting to kill each other and anyone else who disagrees. I'm not sure anymore that any media outlet should give these voices time. In certain cases I think a media blackout is entirely justified.

Whether that's Choudary, Robinson, the idiot from Indonesia, Paul Golding or Al Bagdahdi.

Best post on the subject by a mile - so hopefully we can put that one to bed now. I agree with everything you've said, but then I would because it echoes what I've been saying all along. All extremism should be treated the same and robustly rejected.

The bit in bold though - isn't that so obvious? Yet when I said it @maxjam 's retort was that TR doesn't need to offer solutions - he is just "raising awareness". ?

What's telling is that you have the ex-Chief Prosecutor in a lot of these cases (Nazir Afzal) talking about it in a very measured way and from a very informed stand point. Unafraid to address the so-called "PC issues" that the far right claim that they want to be able to talk about without being called racist - but then they have sent him death threats...

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/03/nazir-afzal-there-is-no-religious-basis-for-the-abuse-in-rotherham

But we start to digress into the non-political. Happy to continue via PMs if necessary

[tomsdubs]

Just now, GboroRam said:

They mean the BBC, and perhaps the Guardian as a little one.

The BBC that gives Farage a gross amount of air time? Invites right wing commentators with 50 followers for interviews? That's had Tory associates planted at the top level?

The Guardian news section is pretty down the line, the opinion section is just exactly that, wouldn't call it a giant in main stream to be honest.

[WhiteHorseRam]

15 hours ago, Norman said:

Deals with USA, Australia, Switzerland, New Zealand, the Carribean, some of Africa are done. Japan is close.

All free trade deals. No tarrifs.

We are down the EU and China. And the EU wont start trade talks with us.

Brilliant news!

 

How are the trade talks with Arrakis, Byzantium and Gondor going?

[G STAR RAM]

38 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

Because this country has a very thin racist streak running through it, and when agitated, it becomes very vocal.  Before you over react, allow me to explain.

My parents where born in Ireland and came to the UK as there where more jobs than people, or so they where told, when they where 18.  The fact was that the jobs available where jobs the 'British' didn't want to do.  My parents and I where subjected to racism, called gippo/gypoo, thieving paddy, terrorist, job taker and a few that wouldn't get through the filter.

Even in the late 70's, when there was a fuel shortage, and instead of going to Ireland for our summer holidays, we went to Skeggy, and about half the BnB's had signs saying 'No Blacks, No Irish and No Dogs'.  It lasted well into the 80's and has pretty much died out, as the extremists have found another minority to pick on.

Islam is an ideology not a race.

[WhiteHorseRam]

11 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

Can't be arsed to work it out but it looks like the pro NHS parties have been hammered by those that will privatise the NHS.

I'm ashamed of my generation. 

Maybe when we've lost all the social gains made by my grandad's and dad's generations we will find the courage to fight back.

 

Or maybe Murdoch was right all along, we just want page 3 tits and plastic patriotism instead of fairness and workers rights.

Don't forget really boring football teams that play all in white, have a squad worth £1 billion with players with no ties to the country they are playing in, let alone the city. Rolling the ball around to win 1-0 after 90 dull minutes while the punters have paid £100 to get in.

[maxjam]

11 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Keep hearing about Antifa. Never met anyone from them. Why are they such big news?

I have seen the National Front, Combat 18, EDL and BNP though (along with others). Marching in the streets. Seen plenty of anti fascists, but nothing you'd say was organised under the name "Antifa". Unless you're broadly amalgamating all the anti fascist groups under this banner?

 

10 minutes ago, tomsdubs said:

So going back to these left wing media giants, you got one for me? Far as I can tell right wing groups that don't break the racial hate rules are still on there. You just posted some stuff that really isn't centred in this country so the relevance is rather lacking. Don't recall any groups of antifa hounding racial minorities or beating up innocent guys standing by in the UK. Maybe you could link me to that?

Maybe you didn't see the Muslim Defence League mob at the Tommy Robinson rally the other day or some of the 'interesting' stuff they have posted online - if one side is worthy of a ban, so is the other.

[tomsdubs]

1 minute ago, maxjam said:

 

Maybe you didn't see the Muslim Defence League mob at the Tommy Robinson rally the other day or some of the 'interesting' stuff they have posted online - if one side is worthy of a ban, so is the other.

False equivalence, who's heard of them? No one. Had zero media attention, but oh no a minority that is being attacked dared get angry? Damn those brown people.

[maxjam]

4 minutes ago, tomsdubs said:

False equivalence, who's heard of them? No one. Had zero media attention, but oh no a minority that is being attacked dared get angry? Damn those brown people.

And why don't you hear about them?  Example article from the incident;

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9106368/tommy-robinson-rally-violence-bricks-eggs-thrown/

 

[Norman]

14 hours ago, Highgate said:

But who is saying the Leave side had no idea? 

People on this thread

[BaaLocks]

18 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Islam is an ideology not a race.

The whole concept of race is outdated - Irish are no more a race than 'Caucasians' are. Interestingly, in terms of DNA, skin colour is one of the smaller differentiators in our genetic code as well. But humans have an inherent, tribal need to set up opposition against what they don't know or understand. It really is most base in our make up - just like a pack of dogs will automatically reject a newcomer. Fundamentally, as a species, we need to be protected from ourselves on this point and constantly educated and reinforced of the dangers that lie in embracing it.

There are so many who use it to fuel their personal - political and otherwise - advancement. Not just Farage but even listening to Esther McVey this morning I was appalled by the tone of her arguments, horribly divisive in the most soft and insidious of ways. Sadly, Corbyn is also in this camp - he claims to be for the many but all his actions are about rejecting compromise, using the system to get his own personal aims realised.

What a sorry, sorry state of affairs.

[eddie]

48 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Nothing I say here will change anyone's mind, I'd suggest you do your own research.

I will give one example however.  Twitter, Facebook etc are social media giants, in this day and age they have far more reach and influence than traditional media.  The EDL, For Britain etc are banned.  Antifa however, despite recently being labelled a domestic terrorist group are not banned.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/01/antifa-charlottesville-violence-fbi-242235

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/antifa-domestic-terrorists-us-security-agencies-homeland-security-fbi-a7927881.html

https://www.facebook.com/antifaintl/

https://twitter.com/antifaintl

'Do your own research' is the new 'study it out' response - and as you well know, labelling Antifa (which is not an organisation - just anybody who chooses to protest against right-wing extremism in the USA) as a 'Domestic terrorist group' is something that Trump instigated in order to project his 'Both sides are bad' rhetoric when trying his hardest not to condemn white supremacists in Charlottesville (remember his "...very fine people on both sides" remark when describing the 'Unite the Right' rally?)

You are implying that to protest against fascism is exactly the same as protesting in favour of fascism. I'm really struggling with such a blatant false dichotomy while trying hard not to come to a conclusion as to where your true sympathies lie.

Edit: If you are trolling, well played.

[tomsdubs]

14 minutes ago, maxjam said:

And why don't you hear about them?  Example article from the incident;

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9106368/tommy-robinson-rally-violence-bricks-eggs-thrown/

 

The Sun? Ooof.

When you go around claiming a whole group of religious people are paedophile proto-terrorists then you can't be outraged by the reaction. When you have marches where you actively harass and attack innocent people standing by you can't be shocked by a reaction. Again though the false equivalence comes in to play, it still pales in insignificance to the views and actions so far of groups that support Robinson's ideology. Large swathes of EDL and Britain First supporters have done prison time for their actions.

The hypocrisy is always a fun one for me, the fact he worked alongside nonces that groomed little kids in the EDL but didn't protest their court trials.

I hope you can find peace my friend, supporting this kind of hate must be a terrible burden.

 

https://politicsandinsights.org/2018/05/29/the-edl-have-paedophiles-in-their-ranks-but-tommy-robinson-evidently-doesnt-condemn-them/