The Politics Thread 2019

[Curtains]

Just now, GboroRam said:

What can they do about it if we invoke article 50? We remain with all our current agreements in place, including the discount and the veto. They can't unilaterally decide to change what's been agreed.

Are you beginning to think it may be worth staying if we could guarantee we don't lose our current position within the EU? Sounds like you may be.

Emphatically no .

 

[GboroRam]

4 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Emphatically no .

 

So why are you asking?

[Stive Pesley]

43 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Question 

Do people advocating a people’s vote want to remain in the EU full stop. 

I've said many times that I'm no fan of the EU and it's internal machinations, but in terms of they way it allows us to run a functioning economy, have so much frictionless trade and the harmonisation of so many rights and services across the bloc was always going to be more important to me.

So I've generally been a remain and reform type, but I almost certainly would have voted leave if we had a social democratic government in place that actually had an proper up-front plan that aimed to protect all the good stuff as a priority and not just a bunch of disaster capitalists rubbing their hands at our expense.

 

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

comment on another and you'll get a visit from the police to 'check your thinking'

So you're basically affording rights on right-wing factions (to say and do whatever they believe in) that you don't think should be afforded to minorities. Or have i read you wrong? Surely someone's personal identification is a personal right and should be none of anyone else's business? Unless they want to go out of their way to oppress that person and deny their right of expression...

[Curtains]

10 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

So why are you asking?

Because you are wrong. 

We haven't had prosperity in the UK for decades 

[Van der MoodHoover]

19 minutes ago, Curtains said:

If the result had been the other way round in 2016 will all the government machine thrown at remain I doubt people would be advocating a people’s vote now. 

Oh well as I’ve said all along the political elite won’t let us leave the EU .

Lets hope the remainers  are right and we will prosper like we always have ha ha 

It's hypothetical of course, but if the vote had been the other way round and there was some really good opportunity we could point to that we could take IF we were only out, then there might be a groundswell.

The problem is not just the vote, its that all the attempts to deliver it make it look worse - and in some instances quite a bit worse - than the leave campaign suggested.

And all of the news has been negative - car firms leaving etc

Has there been any evidence of a queue of investors/states itching to do really material trade deals with us if only we were out of the EU? And don't say trump, because his idea of a trade deal is to win for america and grind the other guy down...... I mean really ATTRACTIVE markets for our goods? 

[maxjam]

3 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

So you're basically affording rights on right-wing factions (to say and do whatever they believe in) that you don't think should be afforded to minorities. Or have i read you wrong? Surely someone's personal identification is a personal right and should be none of anyone else's business? Unless they want to go out of their way to oppress that person and deny their right of expression...

No I'm saying the debate is biased one way.  People can demand you respect their chosen pronoun or belief that they are and elf or a reincarnated dragon which is fair enough but if you err on the side of science and suggest its all nonsense you'll get shouted down and silenced.

Thats the opposite of enforcing any right-wing bias.

[Curtains]

12 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

I've said many times that I'm no fan of the EU and it's internal machinations, but in terms of they way it allows us to run a functioning economy, have so much frictionless trade and the harmonisation of so many rights and services across the bloc was always going to be more important to me.

So I've generally been a remain and reform type, but I almost certainly would have voted leave if we had a social democratic government in place that actually had an proper up-front plan that aimed to protect all the good stuff as a priority and not just a bunch of disaster capitalists rubbing their hands at our expense.

 

The EU helped Greece not. 

The EU is a money wasting machine in my eyes. 

[Curtains]

1 minute ago, HantsRam said:

It's hypothetical of course, but if the vote had been the other way round and there was some really good opportunity we could point to that we could take IF we were only out, then there might be a groundswell.

The problem is not just the vote, its that all the attempts to deliver it make it look worse - and in some instances quite a bit worse - than the leave campaign suggested.

And all of the news has been negative - car firms leaving etc

Has there been any evidence of a queue of investors/states itching to do really material trade deals with us if only we were out of the EU? And don't say trump, because his idea of a trade deal is to win for america and grind the other guy down...... I mean really ATTRACTIVE markets for our goods? 

Is the future rosey for the EU. In my opinion it isn’t.  

We will never get the opportunity to leave again. 

This is it. 

Stay in because we are frightened of short term pain .

No leave and build a better future. 

[GboroRam]

11 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Is the future rosey for the EU. In my opinion it isn’t.  

Why do you believe that? I know SillyBilly has been pre-empting the imminent demise of the EU economy for at least 6 years. I'm sure one day he'll be right, but I suspect Sterling will be far more likely to collapse before the Euro.

[GboroRam]

19 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Because you are wrong. 

We haven't had prosperity in the UK for decades 

We've had improving summers recently though, so maybe the EU is responsible for the good weather?

There's as much evidence of that as there is evidence that the lack of prosperity is down to EU membership.

[G STAR RAM]

2 hours ago, tomsdubs said:

The Sun? Ooof.

When you go around claiming a whole group of religious people are paedophile proto-terrorists then you can't be outraged by the reaction. When you have marches where you actively harass and attack innocent people standing by you can't be shocked by a reaction.

Can you posts some links to where the above has taken place?

Again though the false equivalence comes in to play, it still pales in insignificance to the views and actions so far of groups that support Robinson's ideology. Large swathes of EDL and Britain First supporters have done prison time for their actions.

Any numbers and type of offences committed? 

The hypocrisy is always a fun one for me, the fact he worked alongside nonces that groomed little kids in the EDL but didn't protest their court trials.

For context, any chance of numbers here? 

I hope you can find peace my friend, supporting this kind of hate must be a terrible burden.

There's a huge difference between hate and concern, and trying to differentiate between the 2 isn't that hard if you try.

 

https://politicsandinsights.org/2018/05/29/the-edl-have-paedophiles-in-their-ranks-but-tommy-robinson-evidently-doesnt-condemn-them/

 

[Wolfie]

20 minutes ago, Curtains said:

We haven't had prosperity in the UK for decades 

How so?.

I can't think of a decade (since the 1900 at least) when there hasn't been either a war, serious recession & unemployment or economic shock from outside the UK. The early 2000s was probably the best IMO, though we still had it fall apart starting in 2008.

When, in your opinion, were we more prosperous than we are now?.

[eddie]

1 hour ago, Wolfie said:

I do agree & our company has been hurting due to uncertainty.

However the car industry is currently in global decline and the UK situation is not helped by the recent demonisation of diesel cars in particular. Much of the April fall in output is also due to planned car plant shut-downs being brought forward - The timing of them is Brexit related but they would have happened in the summer anyway.

The BBC is very good at picking a bad news story and attributing it to Brexit, when there are usually many other contributing factors if they'd bother to look.

Poor old BBC - always stirring things up.

However, it's worth pointing out what the BBC didn't actually point out, but I'm damned sure that I am going to, and leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Global car sales are down, you are quite correct in pointing that out, but let's do a direct year-on-year comparison of both global and UK car sales. *Note: for 'global', read 'the top 54 world markets accumulated.

In 2017, sales of new cars worldwide* were 86.43 million cars. In 2018, this figure fell to 86.01 million cars - a decline in sales of 420,000 vehicles, or 0.5% overall.

In 2017, sales of new cars in the UK were 2.54 million cars. In 2018, this figure fell to 2.37 million cars - a decline in sales of 170,000 vehicles, or 6.8% overall.

Taking the two sets of figures together, the UK losses contributed 40.48% of the entire world-wide decline in sales. Let's put that another way - for every three car sales lost in the rest of the world, two sales were lost in Britain alone. That is a staggering statistic, and one which really puts the 'Brexit effect' into perspective.

It's also worth pointing out that Britain's car sale decline didn't start in 2017 - that year itself saw a fall of 5.4% on 2016 figures.

[MaltRam]

3 hours ago, McRamFan said:

Because this country has a very thin racist streak running through it, and when agitated, it becomes very vocal.  Before you over react, allow me to explain.

My parents where born in Ireland and came to the UK as there where more jobs than people, or so they where told, when they where 18.  The fact was that the jobs available where jobs the 'British' didn't want to do.  My parents and I where subjected to racism, called gippo/gypoo, thieving paddy, terrorist, job taker and a few that wouldn't get through the filter.

Even in the late 70's, when there was a fuel shortage, and instead of going to Ireland for our summer holidays, we went to Skeggy, and about half the BnB's had signs saying 'No Blacks, No Irish and No Dogs'.  It lasted well into the 80's and has pretty much died out, as the extremists have found another minority to pick on.

Fair point. 

Is that all there is to it though? Do you think there is any reason at all for the muslim communities in this country to have look at themselves?

[Curtains]

7 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

How so?.

I can't think of a decade (since the 1900 at least) when there hasn't been either a war, serious recession & unemployment or economic shock from outside the UK. The early 2000s was probably the best IMO, though we still had it fall apart starting in 2008.

When, in your opinion, were we more prosperous than we are now?.

We are not prosperous according to Jeremy 

[maxjam]

2 hours ago, eddie said:

You are implying that to protest against fascism is exactly the same as protesting in favour of fascism. I'm really struggling with such a blatant false dichotomy while trying hard not to come to a conclusion as to where your true sympathies lie.

edit: If you are trolling, well played.

 

4 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I hope you can find peace my friend, supporting this kind of hate must be a terrible burden.

There's a huge difference between hate and concern, and trying to differentiate between the 2 isn't that hard if you try.

Thanks @G STAR RAM there is indeed a huge difference between hate and concern.  However as @eddie demonstrates confusing the two leads to insinuations of racism which does prevent some people from speaking up.

[GboroRam]

4 minutes ago, Curtains said:

We are not prosperous according to Jeremy 

So you now believe that Labour are right? I'm impressed in your Damascene conversion, Curtains. Welcome to the dark side, comrade!

[Curtains]

14 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

We've had improving summers recently though, so maybe the EU is responsible for the good weather?

There's as much evidence of that as there is evidence that the lack of prosperity is down to EU membership.

Corby by thinks the country is in a right mess.

Just listen to PMQs

Improving summers is that down to pollution and global warming maybe the EU can sort it out then. 

[Curtains]

Just now, GboroRam said:

So you now believe that Labour are right? I'm impressed in your Damascene conversion, Curtains. Welcome to the dark side, comrade!

Ha ha. 

Good old Jeremy