Watershed moments

[King Kevin]

Looking back over the season so far there has been a few defining decisions that are now affecting the last 1/2 of the season .

1 The sale of Ince and Will  "to fund the rebuild"

2 The purchase of TL

3 Bryson on loan to Cardiff 

4 Butterfield swap and subsequent injury of  SW.

5 Lack of use of CM and subsequent loan and possible devaluation .

6 Stokes interest in GR and following new contract .

7 Purchase of CJ 

8 Failure to manage the departure of JR with an up grade replacement 

9 Failure to sign" Kieff" from Birmingham

10 Signing JL due to above **** up

I would be interested on people's thoughts if they agreed with the decision at the time and it's cumulative effect on the season 

[loweman2]

Dip in form since January of Nugent and subsequent dropping to the bench.

Provided so much off the ball movement allowing Vydra to move into the space up till  the new year.

i think that we relied on him more than we realised.

 

[Richard Dastard Lee]

Foul on Jerome in the box at home to Bristol City and penalty not given.

Anya's 'goal' at Millwall being disallowed.

Those two could have given us 4 more points and we'd be 3rd now or maybe higher as momentum would have been maintained, 'slump' assumption avoided and associated psychological effects avoided.

[Inglorius]

29 minutes ago, King Kevin said:

Looking back over the season so far there has been a few defining decisions that are now affecting the last 1/2 of the season .

1 The sale of Ince and Will  "to fund the rebuild"

2 The purchase of TL

3 Bryson on loan to Cardiff 

4 Butterfield swap and subsequent injury of  SW.

5 Lack of use of CM and subsequent loan and possible devaluation .

6 Stokes interest in GR and following new contract .

7 Purchase of CJ 

8 Failure to manage the departure of JR with an up grade replacement 

9 Failure to sign" Kieff" from Birmingham

10 Signing JL due to above **** up

I would be interested on people's thoughts if they agreed with the decision at the time and it's cumulative effect on the season 

Your post doesn't make sense, you say there have been "a few" defining decisions then you list 10, by definition you can't have 10 watershed moments in 3/4's of a season or they would be therefore not be watershed moments. In isolation none of the listed 10 were watershed moment's, if you're saying that cumulatively the 10 combined had a totally adverse effect on our season then that's another matter. 

[LesterRam]

29 minutes ago, King Kevin said:

Looking back over the season so far there has been a few defining decisions that are now affecting the last 1/2 of the season .

1 The sale of Ince and Will  "to fund the rebuild"

2 The purchase of TL

3 Bryson on loan to Cardiff 

4 Butterfield swap and subsequent injury of  SW.

5 Lack of use of CM and subsequent loan and possible devaluation .

6 Stokes interest in GR and following new contract .

7 Purchase of CJ 

8 Failure to manage the departure of JR with an up grade replacement 

9 Failure to sign" Kieff" from Birmingham

10 Signing JL due to above **** up

I would be interested on people's thoughts if they agreed with the decision at the time and it's cumulative effect on the season 

Bloody hell my head hurts, JL, JR, CJ, GR, SW, TL and B&Q 

[RamNut]

I disagree with alot of decisions but i have to accept that up until the end of december, the decisions that i disagreed with were seeming to deliver results. 

1.The sale of Ince and Will  "to fund the rebuild"

I profoundly disagreed with the sale of Will Hughes. He had signed a long term contract and i believe he would have stayed if we had shown faith in him. Instead GR used the final 9 games of last season to bench him and made it clear he was far less enthusiastic about Will than others. Will got the message. 

I wasn't too bothered about the sale of Ince. The two wingers were luxury players in the 433. The system had been rumbled and we needed players who were grafters and team players.

2 The purchase of TL

I agreed with the signing of TL. At first he looked good, but eventually he started to drive me up the wall. Should have been dropped in december. Stop the prancing run ups. Learn to strike the ball properly. his game seems to be riddled with faults. Not sure he is even a winger.

3 Bryson on loan to Cardiff 

Crackers. There is no footballing justification for this and its not a nice way to treat a loyal servant. Bryson, hughes, martin, russell - all treated badly whereas keogh gets a new 3.5 year contract? It was nice to see craig get an ovation from the crowd v forest at home. Keep bradley and get rid of Bryson? Seriously?? 

4 Butterfield swap and subsequent injury of  SW.

Didn't rate jacob. Another who looked good at first but faded badly and eventually became the personification of sidewards and backwards passing. Didn't know anything about Winnall, but overall he did well. 

5 Lack of use of CM and subsequent loan and possible devaluation .

I understand that CM isn't everyone's cup of tea, but to me he showed great loyalty to Derby and deserved to be given a chance. I would have kept him. I felt he still had a contribution to make. 

6 Stokes interest in GR and following new contract .

His agent played a blinder. stoke hadn't even made a move. To offer him a new contract etc was understandable but i'd have made him wait. At a time when we were playing hardball with contract renewals for Russell and Thorne, it sent the wrong message. 

7 Purchase of CJ 

Awful move. He is actually worse than i thought he was. Sums up our rubbish recruitment and lack of strategy. 

8 Failure to manage the departure of JR with an up grade replacement 

We started the season with three average wingers - russell, weiman, and lawrence. Russell was the best of the bunch. Clearly we weren't over enthusiastic in our attempts to persuade him to stay, but until we have two better players we should hold onto what we have. We totally messed up the contract renewal and were left exposed by his departure. He always gave 100% and his energy was important. 

9 Failure to sign" Kieff" from Birmingham

Why leave it so late to do the deal? Why had we chased other players if keith was so important?

10 Signing JL due to above **** up

I would have been reluctant to sign him because of his age, but he was an unexpected gem. Suddenly the system worked. He deserves tremendous credit. The wheels fell off when he got injured after xmas. 

[ram1964]

Johnny Russell leaving has left a big gap.

GR not making adequate changes early enough in games.

Nugent, Ledley and Thorne loosing form since xmas.

These have been the most influential difference in my opinion.

 

[Alph]

January was the key imo.

Sold our best winger (he should have never been our best winger). Not blaming Gary but even if Russell stayed it was an area we needed to strengthen. We are then giving starts to Anya a player that I'm sure Gary didn't really look to have in his plans.

We brought in Jerome but then lost Winnall and loaned out Martin. A small hit but that's more damage to our attacking options

And perhaps Ledley being in and out the team a bit for one reason or another has also been a bit damaging to the dynamic of the team. He has a touch of Hughes about him. A selfless simple footballer who doesn't seek headlines and gives the right ball at the right time. Makes other players better. Thorne has not been the player he was.

I don't think we've been that convincing under Rowett. Just 2 or 3 players has made a difference. The tight games are tipping the other way. 

It's ok because we can tip it back with a few sensible moves in the summer. But for this season I feel we're gripping on for dear life now. Need to dig in and score enough points to get top 6. Then it's 3 games to throw the kitchen sink at promotion.

Think this is why some of us haven't been convinced by Rowett even when we were flying. Our games have had a delicate balance about them. The bounce of the ball was with us then and now it's not. 

Players need to battle on and not sulk now. Make sure you get within 3 games of the PL

[Ilsonram12]

Kieftenbeld? The same man who’s team are in the drop zone and lost 6 in a row? Think we dodged a bullet there 

[TigerTedd]

4 minutes ago, Ilsonram12 said:

Kieftenbeld? The same man who’s team are in the drop zone and lost 6 in a row? Think we dodged a bullet there 

To miss out on Leif te veld and get Ledley instead, I think we ended up doing very well out of that. 

However, I think the op is trying to say that at the time it seemed we’d done well, when we were doing really well since ledley started. But now maybe us his age catching up in him, a few more knocks, a bit more tired, whereas Keif would still be playing week in week out at this stage. 

I don’t agree, I still think we’re better off with Ledley, but I think that’s the point that’s being made. 

[Ellafella]

37 minutes ago, RamNut said:

I disagree with alot of decisions but i have to accept that up until the end of december, the decisions that i disagreed with were seeming to deliver results. 

1.The sale of Ince and Will  "to fund the rebuild"

I profoundly disagreed with the sale of Will Hughes. He had signed a long term contract and i believe he would have stayed if we had shown faith in him. Instead GR used the final 9 games of last season to bench him and made it clear he was far less enthusiastic about Will than others. Will got the message. 

I wasn't too bothered about the sale of Ince. The two wingers were luxury players in the 433. The system had been rumbled and we needed players who were grafters and team players.

2 The purchase of TL

I agreed with the signing of TL. At first he looked good, but eventually he started to drive me up the wall. Should have been dropped in december. Stop the prancing run ups. Learn to strike the ball properly. his game seems to be riddled with faults. Not sure he is even a winger.

3 Bryson on loan to Cardiff 

Crackers. There is no footballing justification for this and its not a nice way to treat a loyal servant. Bryson, hughes, martin, russell - all treated badly whereas keogh gets a new 3.5 year contract? It was nice to see craig get an ovation from the crowd v forest at home. Keep bradley and get rid of Bryson? Seriously?? 

4 Butterfield swap and subsequent injury of  SW.

Didn't rate jacob. Another who looked good at first but faded badly and eventually became the personification of sidewards and backwards passing. Didn't know anything about Winnall, but overall he did well. 

5 Lack of use of CM and subsequent loan and possible devaluation .

I understand that CM isn't everyone's cup of tea, but to me he showed great loyalty to Derby and deserved to be given a chance. I would have kept him. I felt he still had a contribution to make. 

6 Stokes interest in GR and following new contract .

His agent played a blinder. stoke hadn't even made a move. To offer him a new contract etc was understandable but i'd have made him wait. At a time when we were playing hardball with contract renewals for Russell and Thorne, it sent the wrong message. 

7 Purchase of CJ 

Awful move. He is actually worse than i thought he was. Sums up our rubbish recruitment and lack of strategy. 

8 Failure to manage the departure of JR with an up grade replacement 

We started the season with three average wingers - russell, weiman, and lawrence. Russell was the best of the bunch. Clearly we weren't over enthusiastic in our attempts to persuade him to stay, but until we have two better players we should hold onto what we have. We totally messed up the contract renewal and were left exposed by his departure. He always gave 100% and his energy was important. 

9 Failure to sign" Kieff" from Birmingham

Why leave it so late to do the deal? Why had we chased other players if keith was so important?

10 Signing JL due to above **** up

I would have been reluctant to sign him because of his age, but he was an unexpected gem. Suddenly the system worked. He deserves tremendous credit. The wheels fell off when he got injured after xmas. 

This ^.

GR: "I just think Cameron Jerome brings us something different". What exactly? I was expecting to see energy and power instead of CM's guile and intelligence.

I would start thinking about next season already...In a play-off series with Fulham, Villa, and Boro, we now do not have the depth to do it. 

[Sparkle]

Deep down I think a lot of our frustrations and timing of decisions has been down to our financial position in relation to FFP which is why I will give plenty of time to Rowett and yes I want to see us play what I think is a better standard of football but it seems we are in for a few more seasons of transition and squad overhaul.

Rowett is having to deal with what could easily be described as disastrous player signings and many of those will still be on our books next season even if they are eventually loaned out, namely Butterfield,Blackman,Anya and having shipped out Bent and shackell at the end of the summer, and yes we will still have some on expensive contracts such as Martin and Bryson (who both appear to want to actually play for us) that we will probably look to move on either by loan or permanently.  To raise money next season I am expecting that Vydra will attract offers that we will sell at even if it iswhat we paid.

[Sparkle]

9 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

This ^.

GR: "I just think Cameron Jerome brings us something different". What exactly? I was expecting to see energy and power instead of CM's guile and intelligence.

I would start thinking about next season already...In a play-off series with Fulham, Villa, and Boro, we now do not have the depth to do it. 

I did say when we signed him we would be lucky to get 3-4 goals out of him this season. ( apart from the second goal of three against Brentford that he scored he cost us a win with the penalty give away against Norwich, so I don’t view him giving us anything extra)

[Ellafella]

12 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

Deep down I think a lot of our frustrations and timing of decisions has been down to our financial position in relation to FFP which is why I will give plenty of time to Rowett and yes I want to see us play what I think is a better standard of football but it seems we are in for a few more seasons of transition and squad overhaul.

Rowett is having to deal with what could easily be described as disastrous player signings and many of those will still be on our books next season even if they are eventually loaned out, namely Butterfield,Blackman,Anya and having shipped out Bent and shackell at the end of the summer, and yes we will still have some on expensive contracts such as Martin and Bryson (who both appear to want to actually play for us) that we will probably look to move on either by loan or permanently.  To raise money next season I am expecting that Vydra will attract offers that we will sell at even if it iswhat we paid.

Correct; can see a newly promoted side taking him...why though did Watford allow him to leave...? He is pretty unplayable over 9 yards. 

[Sparkle]

3 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

Correct; can see a newly promoted side taking him...why though did Watford allow him to leave...? He is pretty unplayable over 9 yards. 

Well he played for the manager of Fulham when at Watford so there will be one buyer there if they go up this season 

[Steve How Hard?]

1 hour ago, RamNut said:

I disagree with alot of decisions but i have to accept that up until the end of december, the decisions that i disagreed with were seeming to deliver results. 

1.The sale of Ince and Will  "to fund the rebuild"

I profoundly disagreed with the sale of Will Hughes. He had signed a long term contract and i believe he would have stayed if we had shown faith in him. Instead GR used the final 9 games of last season to bench him and made it clear he was far less enthusiastic about Will than others. Will got the message. 

I wasn't too bothered about the sale of Ince. The two wingers were luxury players in the 433. The system had been rumbled and we needed players who were grafters and team players.

2 The purchase of TL

I agreed with the signing of TL. At first he looked good, but eventually he started to drive me up the wall. Should have been dropped in december. Stop the prancing run ups. Learn to strike the ball properly. his game seems to be riddled with faults. Not sure he is even a winger.

3 Bryson on loan to Cardiff 

Crackers. There is no footballing justification for this and its not a nice way to treat a loyal servant. Bryson, hughes, martin, russell - all treated badly whereas keogh gets a new 3.5 year contract? It was nice to see craig get an ovation from the crowd v forest at home. Keep bradley and get rid of Bryson? Seriously?? 

4 Butterfield swap and subsequent injury of  SW.

Didn't rate jacob. Another who looked good at first but faded badly and eventually became the personification of sidewards and backwards passing. Didn't know anything about Winnall, but overall he did well. 

5 Lack of use of CM and subsequent loan and possible devaluation .

I understand that CM isn't everyone's cup of tea, but to me he showed great loyalty to Derby and deserved to be given a chance. I would have kept him. I felt he still had a contribution to make. 

6 Stokes interest in GR and following new contract .

His agent played a blinder. stoke hadn't even made a move. To offer him a new contract etc was understandable but i'd have made him wait. At a time when we were playing hardball with contract renewals for Russell and Thorne, it sent the wrong message. 

7 Purchase of CJ 

Awful move. He is actually worse than i thought he was. Sums up our rubbish recruitment and lack of strategy. 

8 Failure to manage the departure of JR with an up grade replacement 

We started the season with three average wingers - russell, weiman, and lawrence. Russell was the best of the bunch. Clearly we weren't over enthusiastic in our attempts to persuade him to stay, but until we have two better players we should hold onto what we have. We totally messed up the contract renewal and were left exposed by his departure. He always gave 100% and his energy was important. 

9 Failure to sign" Kieff" from Birmingham

Why leave it so late to do the deal? Why had we chased other players if keith was so important?

10 Signing JL due to above **** up

I would have been reluctant to sign him because of his age, but he was an unexpected gem. Suddenly the system worked. He deserves tremendous credit. The wheels fell off when he got injured after xmas. 

Bang on the money with every single point there. Only thing I would add would be on the TL point. We definitely overpaid for him but I do think there is a player in there. It's similar to the Vydra situation for me. I think he'll come good eventually. GR has to earn his corn and get it out of him. Afterall he is his marquee signing.

[europia]

We probably needed to spend £10-15 million on a top quality striker. Instead for whatever reason we signed Jerome at something like £1.5 million. Not a criticism but an observation.  Maybe Rowett wasn't given the funds, maybe FFP?  I'm not ITK so maybe there are legitimate reasons. 

[Comrade 86]

Not sure about the watershed thing tbh but thoughts on your list as below:

1 The sale of Ince and Will  "to fund the rebuild"

They both wanted to leave and both went to Premiership outfits not rivals. My only gripe is the over the fees we secured, or didn't! I do miss them both though, seriously talented players...

2 The purchase of TL

Folk said the same about Vyds - some players need a season to bed in, same as some need a season coming back off a long term injury. Loading pressure on the lad when his confidence is clearly already pretty fragile, is hardly gonna help and I fear that's what we're doing. 

3 Bryson on loan to Cardiff 

I wouldn't have let him go to Cardiff, that's for certain, but out of all our mids I felt he had most to prove. Long time since we've seen anything like the Bryso of old.

4 Butterfield swap and subsequent injury of  SW.

Just bad luck where SW is concerned. As for Butterfield, well he's rather dipped in my estimations given some silly snipes at the club since the deal was done. I'm not sure we miss him on the pitch either.

5 Lack of use of CM and subsequent loan and possible devaluation 

Yep, one of the great mysteries to me how Vyds and Martin were immediately dismissed at a striking combo. Doubtless GR has his reasons but to not even give them a few games together seems a chance missed. Both so intelligent and with aspects of their games that would surely interface well... A great shame in my book though of course it may not have worked at all!

6 Stokes interest in GR and following new contract 

Just market forces and I'd venture that this only matters if we want to fire GR. If that's already on the agenda then we've bigger problems to sweat on than his contract!

7 Purchase of CJ 

I wasn't averse to a loan and I love that he puts in a proper shift every time he plays, but I'm not yet seeing any kind of upgrade. Setting aside Martin and Winnall, shouldn't Nuge be starting with CamJam the end of game ball of energy that oppos with tiring legs absolutely hate? I'm not sure that it's a coincidence that Vyds has been less effective since Nugent's form dipped slightly and his subsequent absence from the starting 11. That said, what service is Cam getting right now?

8 Failure to manage the departure of JR with an up grade replacement 

I think Jonny took everyone by surprise tbh and that's hard to manage in the January window. I think with Bryso and CHris out the frame he just jumped at a chance for a change. There were signs along the road, I'd concede.

9 Failure to sign" Kieff" from Birmingham

Nah. Sooner have Joe Led myself but Birmingham not tearing up trees and and I'd wager Kief would fancy us in the summer if we were to look again. Can't see it myself though.

10 Signing JL due to above **** up

Please see @9.

 

[MuespachRam]

7 hours ago, Richard Dastard Lee said:

Foul on Jerome in the box at home to Bristol City and penalty not given.

Anya's 'goal' at Millwall being disallowed.

Those two could have given us 4 more points and we'd be 3rd now or maybe higher as momentum would have been maintained, 'slump' assumption avoided and associated psychological effects avoided.

Anya was offside.

[Mistaram]

6 hours ago, RamNut said:

I disagree with alot of decisions but i have to accept that up until the end of december, the decisions that i disagreed with were seeming to deliver results. 

1.The sale of Ince and Will  "to fund the rebuild"

I profoundly disagreed with the sale of Will Hughes. He had signed a long term contract and i believe he would have stayed if we had shown faith in him. Instead GR used the final 9 games of last season to bench him and made it clear he was far less enthusiastic about Will than others. Will got the message. 

I wasn't too bothered about the sale of Ince. The two wingers were luxury players in the 433. The system had been rumbled and we needed players who were grafters and team players.

2 The purchase of TL

I agreed with the signing of TL. At first he looked good, but eventually he started to drive me up the wall. Should have been dropped in december. Stop the prancing run ups. Learn to strike the ball properly. his game seems to be riddled with faults. Not sure he is even a winger.

3 Bryson on loan to Cardiff 

Crackers. There is no footballing justification for this and its not a nice way to treat a loyal servant. Bryson, hughes, martin, russell - all treated badly whereas keogh gets a new 3.5 year contract? It was nice to see craig get an ovation from the crowd v forest at home. Keep bradley and get rid of Bryson? Seriously?? 

4 Butterfield swap and subsequent injury of  SW.

Didn't rate jacob. Another who looked good at first but faded badly and eventually became the personification of sidewards and backwards passing. Didn't know anything about Winnall, but overall he did well. 

5 Lack of use of CM and subsequent loan and possible devaluation .

I understand that CM isn't everyone's cup of tea, but to me he showed great loyalty to Derby and deserved to be given a chance. I would have kept him. I felt he still had a contribution to make. 

6 Stokes interest in GR and following new contract .

His agent played a blinder. stoke hadn't even made a move. To offer him a new contract etc was understandable but i'd have made him wait. At a time when we were playing hardball with contract renewals for Russell and Thorne, it sent the wrong message. 

7 Purchase of CJ 

Awful move. He is actually worse than i thought he was. Sums up our rubbish recruitment and lack of strategy. 

8 Failure to manage the departure of JR with an up grade replacement 

We started the season with three average wingers - russell, weiman, and lawrence. Russell was the best of the bunch. Clearly we weren't over enthusiastic in our attempts to persuade him to stay, but until we have two better players we should hold onto what we have. We totally messed up the contract renewal and were left exposed by his departure. He always gave 100% and his energy was important. 

9 Failure to sign" Kieff" from Birmingham

Why leave it so late to do the deal? Why had we chased other players if keith was so important?

10 Signing JL due to above **** up

I would have been reluctant to sign him because of his age, but he was an unexpected gem. Suddenly the system worked. He deserves tremendous credit. The wheels fell off when he got injured after xmas. 

Ramnut have to agree with most of that but can't agree on Hughes and Ince both told Rowett  they wanted a go at the Prem  Bryson move never made sense even an out of sorts Bryson is better in midfield than BJ  Yes Rowetts agent played a blinder he's also Thornes  agent so he's got him a good deal as well  JR not bothered about him going yes he always worked hard but end product usually zero if you wanted a move to breakdown give to JR his control will let him down but your right he's as good as Weimann and Lawrence but that's not saying much  Ledley as been a plus but since his contract extension he's not been fit  Jerome can't make my mind up we've only got TH who can actually pass and Jerome has to have something he can run onto and he's had very few of the right balls