Derby County V Birmingham City

[lrm14]

8 minutes ago, Spanish said:

Like martin, last time he performed was in another shirt

Martin moves away, does well, comes back and isn't as effective. Bryson has been relatively poor for us recently, moves away and starts looking a totally different player. Yet you and a few others still think those players 'just don't have it' anymore. Weird.

Not sure if it's already been mentioned but when they scored and Martin went to retrieve the ball infront of the east stand, some utter tosser of a supporter ran up to the railings and started abusing him. Martin had just set foot onto the pitch and he was already being scapegoated. Makes you wonder why some of our players do better when they move away from here.

With regards to the match - They were awful, we were ineffective. Neither side seemed to really want it which was rather depressing to see. Still have a fair bit of rebuilding to do ahead of us.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

30 minutes ago, OohMartWright said:

Good God, I hope he doesn't start Martin on Tuesday. He was completely ineffective today and away from home I would expect even less, if that's possible. I have great respect and gratitude for his goals in previous seasons but it seems to me he just hasn't got it any more.

Quite the opposite in my view,intelligent passes that actually reached a colleague unlike most other passes today and reacted prior to the opposition reaching him rather than after...

I appreciate that's a novelty in our side this season but I still quite enjoyed that.

I'm sure in time though he can be shaped into a player who merely runs around a lot without achieving much.

[DavesaRam]

Well some great news from today's match v Birmingham - we aren't going to miss Jacob Butterfield's creative genius, because it seems that most of the squad have pulled together as one, and are now all of them capable of passing the ball backwards when a defence-splitting through ball is the easy option.

Today should have been 3 points, even though Birmingham came with a game plan of not losing. Sadly, as is the Derby way, we were dire, with little creativity, little vision, and yet again a lackadaisical approach to passing the ball. 

By half time we had managed 5 shots, with only on e on target, and Birmingham had only 1 effort. For once the ref wasn't to the usual appalling standard we usually get, but seemed to think he could give free-kicks to Birmingham merely because Derby were on the same pitch. Yet it made little difference. It wasn't that we couldn't get past the parked bus, because Birmingham weren't that obvious. They simply close us down and managed to compress the play, and we helped them by having hardly any width.

I thought Lawrence was probably our best player. Along with Vydra, he was the only one who seemed to have a bit of a spark about his play. Keogh was not too far behind, but there wasn't much else to get excited about. And despite the comments against him, at least Martin gave our front line some cohesiveness because of his ability to hold the ball up and not spoon it to the opposition. Pity that most of the passes to him were either airborne, with many of them actually too high, or played into the channels for him to run onto when everybody knows he doesn't do running. It is also a sad day when everybody is excited by the prospect of a big, battling bruiser in Sam Winnall, good as he may be at his type of game. The Derby way? Oh dear.

Come half-time I went down for a pint, and it was only because my son had left his coat upstairs that we actually went back up. There were probably more than 200 people down in the concourse equally underwhelmed. I know that is likely to get a load of flack along the lines of "call yourself a supporter?", but take a walk through the car park, past all the Maseratis, Jaguars, Lamborghinis and the like of the players who are either millionaires or well on the way to that status from dishing up that level of performance time and time again. They should be ashamed of themselves.

We have a squad that is capable of doing really well in this league, yet seem happy to just go through the motions all too often. You would think that after Sheffield United and then Bristol they would be ashamed of turning in yet another lacklustre display, but that is exactly what they have given us. I heard Chris Baird being interviewed after the match, and his attitude seemed to be that Derby weren't at their best but at least we got a point. In other words it didn't matter that they hadn't turned up yet again. Sorry pal, it does matter to the thousands of fans who spend their hard-earned money to turn up week in and week out.

At least its 3 weeks before we've got to go to Pride Park and watch them again. The trouble is, its against Forest. We should beat them easily because their defence is terrible, but we are likely to spend the 90 minutes not threatening their defence. In which case Forest will win because the rest of their team looks OK, so they will play us off the park.

Not Good Enough By a Country Mile.

[Ellafella]

1 hour ago, brady1993 said:

This argument doesn't really wash for me. He inherited a squad capable of making a top 6 challenges, he's brought in 6 players and moved out 8 (including loans in that ). That's a pretty significant change. 

Plus the big problem I.e. right now is in no small part self inflicted. Rowett correctly identified that we could have use an injection of athleticism in the midfield however his actions have exacerbated a small issue into a massive one by buying Huddlestone and selling off any midfielder who was remotely mobile.

At what do you question is he the right guy to have the opportunity to build 'his team' ? I'm not saying I'd sack him now but far far from convinced he is the right to take us forward.

Exactly. Spot on. I totally agree. It's glaringly obvious that there is a structural imbalance in the team ie it is "lopsided" with 2 deep midfielders playing on a line 5 feet in front of the centre halves then a huge chasm of space then 3 midfielders/attack. It doesn't work. We don't control possession. We lose possession very quickly. It's quick "football" but it's not controlled football. It's tantamount to "school yard" football...you've got 15 minutes to play a game...before the bell goes for boring maths double-period, quick smash the ball forward...Now Johnson's got it, oh no poor pass Johnson now the opponent's got it....oh good challenge Olson, now Kepgh's got it and surges forward and slide-passes to Vydra who turns...oh no he turned into the man, now the opponent's got it and ...oh good tackle Davies and he smashes it forward and Nugent's running after it but ...it's cleared and now Olson's got it and slips it inside to Johnson again, who chips it forward to Lawrence who turns inside and ohhh, beats a man and stops, then reverses it to Huddlestone who sweeps it wide to Olson who turns it inside to Johnson who wallops it forward...oh throw-in to Brum....Thank God there's the bell for double-maths...better than watching this awful, inchoate, kick n rush utter "gegenpresse" garbage. 

[Gypsy Ram]

@DavesaRam At some point during the game I started playing Risk on my phone. It was way more entertaining. 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

1 minute ago, Gypsy Ram said:

@DavesaRam At some point during the game I started playing Risk on my phone. It was way more entertaining. 

I caught my son looking at his today....normally b******* him for that but understood it completely,sadly.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

Well some great news from today's match v Birmingham - we aren't going to miss Jacob Butterfield's creative genius, because it seems that most of the squad have pulled together as one, and are now all of them capable of passing the ball backwards when a defence-splitting through ball is the easy option.

Today should have been 3 points, even though Birmingham came with a game plan of not losing. Sadly, as is the Derby way, we were dire, with little creativity, little vision, and yet again a lackadaisical approach to passing the ball. 

By half time we had managed 5 shots, with only on e on target, and Birmingham had only 1 effort. For once the ref wasn't to the usual appalling standard we usually get, but seemed to think he could give free-kicks to Birmingham merely because Derby were on the same pitch. Yet it made little difference. It wasn't that we couldn't get past the parked bus, because Birmingham weren't that obvious. They simply close us down and managed to compress the play, and we helped them by having hardly any width.

I thought Lawrence was probably our best player. Along with Vydra, he was the only one who seemed to have a bit of a spark about his play. Keogh was not too far behind, but there wasn't much else to get excited about. And despite the comments against him, at least Martin gave our front line some cohesiveness because of his ability to hold the ball up and not spoon it to the opposition. Pity that most of the passes to him were either airborne, with many of them actually too high, or played into the channels for him to run onto when everybody knows he doesn't do running. It is also a sad day when everybody is excited by the prospect of a big, battling bruiser in Sam Winnall, good as he may be at his type of game. The Derby way? Oh dear.

Come half-time I went down for a pint, and it was only because my son had left his coat upstairs that we actually went back up. There were probably more than 200 people down in the concourse equally underwhelmed. I know that is likely to get a load of flack along the lines of "call yourself a supporter?", but take a walk through the car park, past all the Maseratis, Jaguars, Lamborghinis and the like of the players who are either millionaires or well on the way to that status from dishing up that level of performance time and time again. They should be ashamed of themselves.

We have a squad that is capable of doing really well in this league, yet seem happy to just go through the motions all too often. You would think that after Sheffield United and then Bristol they would be ashamed of turning in yet another lacklustre display, but that is exactly what they have given us. I heard Chris Baird being interviewed after the match, and his attitude seemed to be that Derby weren't at their best but at least we got a point. In other words it didn't matter that they hadn't turned up yet again. Sorry pal, it does matter to the thousands of fans who spend their hard-earned money to turn up week in and week out.

At least its 3 weeks before we've got to go to Pride Park and watch them again. The trouble is, its against Forest. We should beat them easily because their defence is terrible, but we are likely to spend the 90 minutes not threatening their defence. In which case Forest will win because the rest of their team looks OK, so they will play us off the park.

Not Good Enough By a Country Mile.

Otherwise Ok?

[Ellafella]

7 minutes ago, Gypsy Ram said:

@DavesaRam At some point during the game I started playing Risk on my phone. It was way more entertaining. 

How did you get on? 

[lrm14]

7 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

Exactly. Spot on. I totally agree. It's glaringly obvious that there is a structural imbalance in the team ie it is "lopsided" with 2 deep midfielders playing on a line 5 feet in front of the centre halves then a huge chasm of space then 3 midfielders/attack. It doesn't work. We don't control possession. We lose possession very quickly. It's quick "football" but it's not controlled football. It's tantamount to "school yard" football...you've got 15 minutes to play a game...before the bell goes for boring maths double-period, quick smash the ball forward...Now Johnson's got it, oh no poor pass Johnson now the opponent's got it....oh good challenge Olson, now Kepgh's got it and surges forward and slide-passes to Vydra who turns...oh no he turned into the man, now the opponent's got it and ...oh good tackle Davies and he smashes it forward and Nugent's running after it but ...it's cleared and now Olson's got it and slips it inside to Johnson again, who chips it forward to Lawrence who turns inside and ohhh, beats a man and stops, then reverses it to Huddlestone who sweeps it wide to Olson who turns it inside to Johnson who wallops it forward...oh throw-in to Brum....Thank God there's the bell for double-maths...better than watching this awful, inchoate, kick n rush utter "gegenpresse" garbage. 

Just to point out, we're not employing 'gegenpressing'. Our midfield doesn't have the mobility to press and our front four just do a relatively poor press on their back line.

Other than that, I agree. But then I try to think how else to play with the players at our disposal and it is pretty hard to come up with an alternative.

[jono]

1 hour ago, RamNut said:

The game was similar to bristol city in that it was very scrappy.

very little control - in contrast to what GR stated. 

birmingham were there for the taking. Morrison was a bag of nerves at the back. They had a right back at left back. Gallagher was totally isolated up front and didn't look interested. The blues fans gave him a big cheer when he eventually won a header. The little winger on loan from chelsea looked like he might be the match winner for a while. But they offered little.

keogh and davies had it easy such that keogh could become an extra midfielder at times. Huddlestone looked to lack the confidence to spray the passes around. Johnson looked the club-footed fool he becomes at times. Weiman was ineffective. Nugent wandered off. With so few players really offering anything in possession we huffed and puffed to little effect.

Blues used their subs first and got an immediate benefit with the goal. It looked like we were going to lose but Bennett and winnall provided an injection of energy and creativity and we got the equaliser we deserved.

gary seems to have destroyed our midfield and our ability to retain creative possession. I watched david davis to see the other player we were supposedly desperate to sign on deadline day. I'd rather have bryson tbh.

The team looked to have lost any early season bounce. Do they really believe in this system?

three very important games are coming up. Brentford, cardiff and forest.

Forest always seems to come at a critical time.

 

I don't completely buy this contention that the midfield has been wrecked. Midfield has been a continuing problem for a long time. We have only had a brief period when Bryson / Hendrick + Thorne or Eustace were firing on all cylinders.( and without rose tinted specs that wasn't always the case )  and Yes there was the odd match too where Will's creativity gave us some thing different but our link between a sound enough back 4 and a competent attack has been fragile sometimes and one dimensional on others. 

True we lack dynamism and bite but previously we have been timid and at times plain lightweight. A bit of Will magic or 2014 Bryson energy might make the odd good game but don't solve the problem fundamentally 

[The_Sheriff]

49 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Quite the opposite in my view,intelligent passes that actually reached a colleague unlike most other passes today and reacted prior to the opposition reaching him rather than after...

I appreciate that's a novelty in our side this season but I still quite enjoyed that.

I'm sure in time though he can be shaped into a player who merely runs around a lot without achieving much.

Scoring more than 1 goal in 25 apps would be a good start...

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

2 minutes ago, Simsy said:

Scoring more than 1 goal in 25 apps would be a good start...

We don't count the ones at Fulham when he was loaned out then?

And I wasn't aware of anyone scoring under Pearson's tenure.....including the wonderboy vydra.....

Let me know when the rest of our strikers manage 15 to 20 a season.

 

 

[TobyWanKenobi]

I predicted a loss, so I'm over the moon we managed to scrape a draw. Well done lads. Big improvement over the Bristol debacle. 

[CWC1983]

2 hours ago, RamNut said:

The game was similar to bristol city in that it was very scrappy.

very little control - in contrast to what GR stated. 

birmingham were there for the taking. Morrison was a bag of nerves at the back. They had a right back at left back. Gallagher was totally isolated up front and didn't look interested. The blues fans gave him a big cheer when he eventually won a header. The little winger on loan from chelsea looked like he might be the match winner for a while. But they offered little.

keogh and davies had it easy such that keogh could become an extra midfielder at times. Huddlestone looked to lack the confidence to spray the passes around. Johnson looked the club-footed fool he becomes at times. Weiman was ineffective. Nugent wandered off. With so few players really offering anything in possession we huffed and puffed to little effect.

Blues used their subs first and got an immediate benefit with the goal. It looked like we were going to lose but Bennett and winnall provided an injection of energy and creativity and we got the equaliser we deserved.

gary seems to have destroyed our midfield and our ability to retain creative possession. I watched david davis to see the other player we were supposedly desperate to sign on deadline day. I'd rather have bryson tbh.

The team looked to have lost any early season bounce. Do they really believe in this system?

 

 

Pretty much how I saw it. Disappointed we didn't really go for it after the equaliser. Just roll the dice and see what happens. 

Slow, pedestrian, no width, and ultimately boring to watch. 

There's a decent defence and forward line in the squad, but it looked a total mish mash of strangers playing together in the first half. 

Gary really needs a win against Forest or the season will peter out and fans will lose patience. 

 

 

[Carl Sagan]

Just found out the score and the team. From the stats. those who moaned about the Hull match should be much happier today given the way we apparently bossed possession.

On a more serious note, to play an unchanged team after these same players caved in against Bristol City is a reward for failure. If you're not starting but you work hard in training and then the same team that played shambolically the week before plays again, you must begin to question why you're bothering. And you know there'll be one less place to go for next week because Ledley will start when he's only just arrived at the club whereas you've been working hard from pre-season onwards.

I want competition for places which means you have to believe if you don't perform you lose the shirt. And the flipside is if you work hard in training you expect you will be rewarded with a start if the starters perform poorly.

Disappointing man management from Rowett.

[The_Sheriff]

57 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

We don't count the ones at Fulham when he was loaned out then?

And I wasn't aware of anyone scoring under Pearson's tenure.....including the wonderboy vydra.....

Let me know when the rest of our strikers manage 15 to 20 a season.

 

 

What all 11?  No it's true his last 25 apps in all comps he only has 1 goal. Sky posted it a few games ago at 21. I would take you far more seriously if you admit Martin didn't play well or the fact he's off form.

Why do you bring up vydra? Does it satisfy you to try knock another's player to defend one you like?  

I agree we don't have a striker who will get 20+ this season and when I feel we do I will be sure to mention it. 

[Ellafella]

12 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

Just found out the score and the team. From the stats. those who moaned about the Hull match should be much happier today given the way we apparently bossed possession.

On a more serious note, to play an unchanged team after these same players caved in against Bristol City is a reward for failure. If you're not starting but you work hard in training and then the same team that played shambolically the week before plays again, you must begin to question why you're bothering. And you know there'll be one less place to go for next week because Ledley will start when he's only just arrived at the club whereas you've been working hard from pre-season onwards.

I want competition for places which means you have to believe if you don't perform you lose the shirt. And the flipside is if you work hard in training you expect you will be rewarded with a start if the starters perform poorly.

Disappointing man management from Rowett.

Absolutely. Basic learning theory. Don't reward failure. Don't punish success. 

Post-match GR revealed muddled thinking..."I was going to change it...then I thought...no...just see off the back of the Bristol game if there's a reaction...".

sounds also like Johnny Russell may have let frustration boil over...

[Carl Sagan]

11 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

Absolutely. Basic learning theory. Don't reward failure. Don't punish success. 

Post-match GR revealed muddled thinking..."I was going to change it...then I thought...no...just see off the back of the Bristol game if there's a reaction...".

sounds also like Johnny Russell may have let frustration boil over...

Interesting on all counts. I think there's a big thread on Johnny that started tonight but hadn't dipped into it. Seeing this I just read Rowett's post-match comments on the (lack of) selection: http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/what-gary-rowett-said-asked-522727

[Millenniumram]

35 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

Just found out the score and the team. From the stats. those who moaned about the Hull match should be much happier today given the way we apparently bossed possession.

On a more serious note, to play an unchanged team after these same players caved in against Bristol City is a reward for failure. If you're not starting but you work hard in training and then the same team that played shambolically the week before plays again, you must begin to question why you're bothering. And you know there'll be one less place to go for next week because Ledley will start when he's only just arrived at the club whereas you've been working hard from pre-season onwards.

I want competition for places which means you have to believe if you don't perform you lose the shirt. And the flipside is if you work hard in training you expect you will be rewarded with a start if the starters perform poorly.

Disappointing man management from Rowett.

Thank you for saying this! Exactly what I said when the team sheet is out, in any business when there’s failure you don’t just try the same thing again! The team will think it doesn’t matter if they don’t play well cause noones gonna take your place! As a wise man once said, insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.

[Ramslad1992]

3 hours ago, OohMartWright said:

Good God, I hope he doesn't start Martin on Tuesday. He was completely ineffective today and away from home I would expect even less, if that's possible. I have great respect and gratitude for his goals in previous seasons but it seems to me he just hasn't got it any more.

All I noticed today from his was his body language... absolutely shocking! Everything he tried that went wrong was somebody else's fault.