Sith Happens Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 Martin cant be blamed for yesterday, lumping it up to him all the time just wasnt working so why we continued with it i dont know. Our best threat, what little of it there was, was when we had the ball on the floor passing it about. If we are going to continue with the 'direct' approach then yes we need a new striker, ideally one about 7 foot tall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagerbob Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 Did well at Fulham. Suggests to me, he isnt the problem, its the players around him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 10 minutes ago, jagerbob said: Did well at Fulham. Suggests to me, he isnt the problem, its the players around him. Er. No he didn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 13 hours ago, RoyMac5 said: Were there any crosses today? I thought I saw a tweet quoting a zero crosses stat. The sky sports app thing showed 0 all game for crosses for derby but it now shows 7/27. Not sure how they define a "successful " cross but they ate claiming there were 7. Maybe that includes corners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 37 minutes ago, HantsRam said: The sky sports app thing showed 0 all game for crosses for derby but it now shows 7/27. Not sure how they define a "successful " cross but they ate claiming there were 7. Maybe that includes corners Huddz corners sounded pretty woeful, floaty ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said: Huddz corners sounded pretty woeful, floaty ones? Over hit floaty ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 11 hours ago, Ninos said: No idea. Could speculate ... He was supposed to be the British king of gegenpress who studied Dortmund. What happened ? One game last year we played with Vydra and Nugent and pressed and we shattered the opposition. Then he goes back to a 4-3-3. He says all the right things - and does none of them. Reality is you can't encourage the team to launch long through balls to run onto (which he does) then field a Martin-centered team that doesn't play clever and fast on the ground. We don't have clever fast players (our trickiest 3 are gone) so failure is imminent if he persists don't you think ? I thought he was going to be the master tactician and manager ninos,according to you he was the second coming......at least you have come to your senses. Makes you realise that McLaren was a superior manager and coach, what a job he had on sorting this lot out and why he was desperate to get Martin back last season.....he might even have got the team playing to his feet instead of the hoofball we are suffering from. The problem Mac2 had was the team he inherited....he should have been given this season to buy and improve. The football would at least have been entertaining Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peakram Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 If we are going to persist with that midfield, I cant see Martin doing much as he relies on runners to support him. And theres no pace or individual skill to beat anybody in the midfield so its not really going to happen, ok Johnson can very occasionally arrive late and get on the end of something but he doesnt really convince totally in an attacking kind of role. The whole blend of the midfield looks totally wrong to me, needs an injection of legs and a bit of flair somewhere to go past someone. Butterfield is a very frustrating player who seems to play wihin himself, preferring the backwards and sideways option and pretty much playing the same kind of role as Huddersfield without the range of passing. An on form Bryson would be a solution, but since his injuries he hasnt looked the same player in the last couple of seasons. Plus the widemen are very lightweight, no power and not enough pace. Easily knocked off the ball. Luke Varney stylee. So if we are stuck with them, I agree you would need a more mobile centre forward to do something of his own volition, Martin with the right players I rate as a very capable and effective weapon, but at present its hard to see where the blend is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said: Huddz corners sounded pretty woeful, floaty ones? Woeful floaters often gets me into trouble of a Saturday evening. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEL Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 2 hours ago, toddy said: Er. No he didn't Er yes he did. But it won't stop you posting some drivel about Martin though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 2 hours ago, peakram said: Butterfield is a very frustrating player who seems to play wihin himself, preferring the backwards and sideways option and pretty much playing the same kind of role as Huddersfield without the range of passing. Couple of thoughts on this… 1) How much is due the role he is being asked to play? Under Clement he played in an attacking role, which seems to be his preferred role and where he is more comfortable. Since Clement’s sacking he has seemingly, in my view, been played/asked to play in more of a reserved/defensive role, and this has had an effect on his overall contribution in a forward sense. Certainly his goal output has fallen dramatically: 6 in 20(5) under Clement, with 4 in 49(13) since. A drop from approx. 1-in-4, to approx. 1-in-16! 2) How much of this is due to the amount of criticism he gets from the fan base? I would imagine it is so much easier to play the simple, high percentage (backward/sideways) pass than try something of a higher risk, which may not pay off and draw inevitable grumbles of frustration from the crowd. Not denying he still needs to do the basics well and he could certainly help himself by actively looking to have more of an influence on games. Confidence? It’s a two-way street, I guess, with the fanbase. They reign in a little from the criticism of every mistake or misplaced pass he makes, he imposes himself on the games more, gets into advanced positions to make/get goal scoring opportunities, thus encouraging the crowd to back him a little more, and so on… There is a capable player in there, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PodgeyRam Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 34 minutes ago, John Doe said: Couple of thoughts on this… 1) How much is due the role he is being asked to play? Under Clement he played in an attacking role, which seems to be his preferred role and where he is more comfortable. Since Clement’s sacking he has seemingly, in my view, been played/asked to play in more of a reserved/defensive role, and this has had an effect on his overall contribution in a forward sense. Certainly his goal output has fallen dramatically: 6 in 20(5) under Clement, with 4 in 49(13) since. A drop from approx. 1-in-4, to approx. 1-in-16! 2) How much of this is due to the amount of criticism he gets from the fan base? I would imagine it is so much easier to play the simple, high percentage (backward/sideways) pass than try something of a higher risk, which may not pay off and draw inevitable grumbles of frustration from the crowd. Not denying he still needs to do the basics well and he could certainly help himself by actively looking to have more of an influence on games. Confidence? It’s a two-way street, I guess, with the fanbase. They reign in a little from the criticism of every mistake or misplaced pass he makes, he imposes himself on the games more, gets into advanced positions to make/get goal scoring opportunities, thus encouraging the crowd to back him a little more, and so on… There is a capable player in there, in my opinion. There is, but so much of the frustration of the fans is that he gives the appearance of not doing much. If he were to actually drive forward, try and create something or shoot, the crowd would get off his back. Look at Johnson and Bryson. They are technically worse than him, but they try and make things happen which gets the fans onside. That's more than can be said for Butterfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, PodgeyRam said: There is, but so much of the frustration of the fans is that he gives the appearance of not doing much. If he were to actually drive forward, try and create something or shoot, the crowd would get off his back. Look at Johnson and Bryson. They are technically worse than him, but they try and make things happen which gets the fans onside. That's more than can be said for Butterfield. Don't disagree. That's why I say he needs to help himself by doing just that. He has it in him, and that is my major frustration with him as a player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 17 hours ago, Ninos said: You'll only figure it out RM when we hit rock bottom that is that martin and 4-3-3 is dead. Hopefully Rowett won't wait that long. Some people have to actually hit the wall before they realise it is there mate.. Im expecting my call from Morris tomorrow ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 2 hours ago, DEL said: Er yes he did. But it won't stop you posting some drivel about Martin though. He was not even there highest goalscorer..........their midfielders outscored him. Anyway the issue is not how played at Fulham, but how he is playing for us and 2 games in he really has not done anything. Haven't you realised yet the system with the players we have do not suit a lump up front who is unwilling to run and create space? Derby of 2013/14 are no more, why GR still persists in trying to play 4-3-3 with this midfield is beyond me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 Play in the right way, get the right type of players around Martin, and he will flourish. At Fulham last year, he was playing in a very dynamic and positive team. A manager in Jokanovic who sets up his teams to play on the front foot and to be comfortable with the ball. Midfield options of Cairney, Johansen, Ayite, Aluko, Piazon and attacking full backs in Fredericks and Malone. It's the kind of team you want to play for - players with composure, energy, movement and skill, and most of all, a manager with positive intent. You look at our team and I've seen more dynamism from a tortoise tied to concrete blocks. Motivation must be an issue too. He has strolled back into the starting eleven. He is assured of a starting place. He is sitting on a bumper new contract. He is playing in a side that is set up negatively. Is it any wonder we are not seeing the best of Chris Martin? Maybe if Rowett had started the season with Nugent and Vydra, Martin might be hungrier and feel like he has a point to prove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrm14 Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 37 minutes ago, toddy said: He was not even there highest goalscorer..........their midfielders outscored him. Anyway the issue is not how played at Fulham, but how he is playing for us and 2 games in he really has not done anything. Haven't you realised yet the system with the players we have do not suit a lump up front who is unwilling to run and create space? Derby of 2013/14 are no more, why GR still persists in trying to play 4-3-3 with this midfield is beyond me! Yeah he was so awful that Fulham wanted to keep him and persisted in playing him even though they knew he was coming back to Derby. It's entirely relevant how he did for Fulham because it proves yet again that he's not this bad player you arbitrarily think he is. Is 2 games with very little service really the amount of time you'll give a striker? Against Wolves you could have had Ronaldo paying up top and it wouldn't have mattered, he had 0 service. Your second point is the reason Martin has done so poorly over the past few games, we've been playing a system where he is completely isolated due to our exceptionally static midfield. You've been proven time and time again that you're wrong both statistically and by professionals within the game. Maybe it's time to use your brain and think, if everything suggests Martin isn't as bad as I think he is then maybe his recent performances are a symptom of a much larger problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimRam Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 A good striker should make things happen himself. I cannot recall the last time Martin had the pace to run at a defence, beat a man and shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Tibbs Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 You're literally never going to see Martin do that. Or many strikers in this division do that for that matter. Your Chris Wood's/Kermogant's/Jermoe's all rely on supply just like CM does. Those that don't generally don't play in this division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramdale Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 I'm a huge Martin fan and don't underestimate how good a player he has been for us, but his time is up for me. We are no longer the same side when he was integral to us. For him to be effective you have to dominate possession and allow time for bodies to get around him. That isn't and won't be the case this year. We need some power and pace up front as we are going to play on the counter a lot. As others have stated, Martin won't create chances for himself and that is what we need right now. You can moan about the service into him, but the top strikers in this league still create stuff for themselves. He's had 1 chance in 2 games which he ballooned over the bar and looked so ineffective. He doesn't run the channels or make life difficult for defenders and that is what we need up there. I'd love to see us go for Dicko from Wolves and play Vydra off him. He was a real handful at our place last year and doesn't look like he will be too involved this year at a Wolves as they are linked with another striker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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