Butterfield's time to shine?

[Inglorius]

24 minutes ago, Ninos said:

Never liked him. In addition to his negative play, he can't do anything defensively, not tackle, can't even head the ball, we all know that. But offensively he rarely threads a forward pass, hasn't scored (apart from one deflection) in forever, is without any speed, and has zero ability to beat a player one on one. 

Apart from that he's ok

[Warren Hobhead]

I agree with a lot of what others have already said, both positively and negatively. But I don't feel it's fair to come to any sort of conclusion about him using just last season as evidence. The year before he was the top scoring centre mid in the division and key in us making the playoffs. I believe he - like everyone else barring Ince - suffered last season from a change in manager every three months.

Russell gets the same unfair hammer. The fact he was involved in 20 goals the season before is conveniently ignored. But back to the topic and Butterfield...

He started the season as a left winger under Pearson. He played right wing back against Liverpool in the cup! He's played as a ten, as a holding midfielder, the job lot under Mac and GR. As did the other midfielders. The whole team must have wondered whether they were coming or going. I'm sorry, but that can't have been helpful when trying to find form. For any of them. 

And yet, even though Will has left of his own choosing, he is still handed excuses for his poor showing last season. The excuses I've just outlined above. And that's fine. I think Will is a terrific talent with superb potential. I look forward to seeing him hopefully progress and earn our club a fortune in the process. But it's only fair to offer the same excuses to Butters and the other midfielders. No?

"He only scored once" is the latest to hit Jacob with. No reference to the year before. And never used to knock Hughes, a player who played 100 more games for the club and managed two more goals, despite everyone (near enough) seeing JB and WH as similar midfielders. 

"He just passes sideways or back" was another beauty. Despite him playing more forward passes on average last season than, yep, Will Hughes. 

 

But enough of the comparison. I actually don't see them as similar midfielders. I think both are technically immaculate but Will thinks quicker. One of them can't shoot for toffee, the other can. One has two feet, the other doesn't. One is far better defensively, but the other is more positionally sound. One occasionally heads the ball, whereas I'd back Verne Troyer to beat the other in the air. But all the above is merely my opinion, and there to be shot at. 

I rate him. 

My complaints about him will always come back to his decision making. Because I think he's much better than he allows himself to be. I accept he can play too safe and cautious. When he plays with instinct, doesn't over-think things, then he's shown ability that would be key in us getting us out of the division. 

 

Talking is ok, but actions speak louder than words. If GR gives him the chance this season, it's up to him to deliver on a regular basis. Can he? We shall see. I hope so. I hope every player performs. Because I'm a Ram. Why anyone wouldn't want our players to do well, I've no idea. But there are some on here who genuinely give off that kind of vibe. 

 

UTR 

[Charlie G]

Butterfield is a typical example of a good player not fitting to a balance of a team. We've bought players who look good elsewhere but here they're just nothing special. 

I think he's got goals in him but he doesn't need defensive duties. 

Yes he passes side ways but in the opposition box that isn't a bad thing. 

I think he's gonna do ok this season 

 

[Jourdan]

Butterfield is a confidence player. He needs to know the manager will look to him as a key player.

You look at the clubs where he has had the most success - Barnsley and Huddersfield - and they are the clubs that have built their side around him and not just expected him to slot in here, there and everywhere.

Here, he is not the main man and he is not the first name on the team sheet. May Hughes's departure push him up the pecking order? Possibly. Much depends on who else we bring in, the system we adopt under Rowett, and most of all, the fitness of Thorne.

He's a good player with some desirable qualities but not essential ones. For the qualities he has, a fit Thorne does the deep lying playmaker role better and Johnson does the defensive work better. Further forward, I think Bryson offers more of a goal threat and will link up better with the likes of Martin and Nugent.

As good as he is, I can imagine him being one of those players who needs a fresh start, because he is good enough to be a starter at this level at the right club. I just don't think it's ours.

[rammieib]

I predict his first (and second, third and fourth) passes this season will be sideways.

[Ninos]

1 hour ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

His technical ability is unquestioned. However his decision making is poor, especially the time it takes for him to make a decision. How many moves has he messed up over the past 2 seasons by taking too many touches. As for those saying  Clement and McClaren drummed the sideways backwards possession for possession sake into him, maybe it was Butterfield himself who preferred to take the easy option and not play the risk/reward pass? I'm the 4-3-3 he didn't have the engine to play it, and defensively he's woeful, too lightweight and can't tackle.

However, he has had good games, for me forest away when he came on he was running at the heart of their defence, playing incisive balls to the wings and getting into the box, and as we know from his first season around the edge of the box, he is lethal.

I would have much preferred JB to leave the club than Hughes, but obviously there hasn't been much interest in him. Hopefully he fits into a Rowett team better than he has the previous managers but this is a massive season for him and if he gets his chance he has to deliver. In 2 years, he has NOT delivered.

But then again, he's not the only one in this squad we can say this about.

Very good post which I enjoyed reading but I don't really agree with the first sentence - technical ability for me as defined at its pinnacle by Messi. Can trap the ball pass the ball and beat people with the ball, all at speed. He can't do any of those things at pace.  You even you admit above that he's so slow to make a decision. If you give a professional player a lot of time they should ALL be technically proficient. So he's average technically that's about it, which makes him inadequate for dcfc.

[Ninos]

25 minutes ago, rammieib said:

I predict his first (and second, third and fourth) passes this season will be sideways.

That's overly positive. I predict that between 25%-75% of those four passes will be backwards.

[BramcoteRam84]

When I say technical ability unquestioned then everything has to be caveated with "at this level". Now Hughes is gone, he's one of the best technicians in the club. But that's not enough. Hes never fit the 4-3-3, not his fault. Even when he scored 8 goals, the midfield was never balanced with him Thorne and Johnson, Martin became massively isolated which was a big contributor to him having a poor season by his standards.

 Maybe Rowett will find a system that suits Butterfield, but he's not robust enough to play CM in a 4-4-2, doesn't have the engine to play 4-3-3 and is too slow to play wide. Could be a role alongside Thorne in a 4-2-3-1, or even in the 3 off the the striker. But in doing that could be square peg in a round hole again?

We shall see.

[uttoxram75]

JB is very unlucky. I'm sure there's a decent player in the right formation there somewhere. The problem is that he is not as good as Bryson, Hendrick, Thorne or Hughes so he'll always be judged  against them.

Bryson - ability to close opponents down, time his runs beyond the forwards to get in the box and superb finishing.

Hendrick - great passer, link up, strong runner and excellent skill, times his runs into the box well, possibly better finisher than Bryson.

Thorne - great vision, reads the game and intercepts potential danger quickly and efficiently, strong in the tackle and can pass through the eye of a needle to open up defences. Has a decent shot and often hits the target from outside the box.

Hughes - most naturally gifted midfielder of his generation, balance, control, quick thinking and quick feet, brings others into play while out thinking several of the opposition at the same time, ultimate team player.

Butterfield - can't time runs like CB, not got the skill or power of JH, can't do the GT role and doesn't have the quickness of thought or ability of WH...

We had the best midfielders outside the Prem, all good enough to play at that level imo so JB was never going to improve on what we had. He was bought by Clement to try and do a job until Bryson and Hughes recovered from injury. To expect him to be as good as any of those four is totally unfair on the lad as he just doesn't have the ability.

 

[Andicis]

2 hours ago, Warren Hobhead said:

But enough of the comparison. I actually don't see them as similar midfielders. I think both are technically immaculate but Will thinks quicker. One of them can't shoot for toffee, the other can. One has two feet, the other doesn't. One is far better defensively, but the other is more positionally sound. One occasionally heads the ball, whereas I'd back Verne Troyer to beat the other in the air. But all the above is merely my opinion, and there to be shot at. 

I agree with large portions of your post, I think Butterfield has a role to play next season, and I think some fans treat him unfairly. That being said, I don't think comparing him to Hughes off one bad season is a good way to go about putting forward your point for Butterfield, as after all, in your post you mention Butterfield has had a bad season goal tally wise, which is a perfectly adequate point, however you must surely make the same allowance for Hughes? 

I'm also interested in which one you think heads the ball better, I honestly couldn't answer that one, since neither is necessarily known for their prowess on heading.

Overall, it's a good post, we need to get behind Butterfield now Hughes is gone, we need a technician in the middle of the park. I'd like to see Butterfield show more of the form from the 15/16 season now, and push on. 

[EulogyForEvolution]

I think Johnson/Thorne will be the midfield pairing of choice, but he is sure to get plenty of chances. If we go 4-4-2, which i suspect we will, it could really suit him running from deep like he used to for Huddersfield. Adding a Whelan type as a backup for Thorne to play alongside him could help is game too. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Johnson play on the left when he scored a hatful for Norwich and they got promoted? Something like this might work (though might lack a bit of pace):

                Carson
Wisdom Davies Shackell Forsyth
Ince Thorne Butterfield Johnson
           Martin Vydra

If we signed Whelan (or another experienced ball winner) we'd have pretty much two decent squads for this formation:

               Carson
Baird Keogh Davies Lowe
Anya Whelan Bryson Russell
         Nugent Weimann

Squad of 24.
Blackman (we aren't going to shift him so might as well give him a go!) and Bennett as cover for both attacking positions and on the wings.
Sell: Olsson, Christie, Pearce, Bent.
Loan out Hanson, Rawson, Elsnik and Vernam for 6 months.

Should be enough to challenge for the playoffs if we get some partnerships forming in the team. The last time Butters played in a 4-4-2 he created more chances than any other player in the Championship. The last time Bradders played on the left of a midfield 4 he scored 15 goals (that season he had Redmond on the opposite wing). Vydra has hit 15+ goals in this league playing in a front 2. We all know what Martin can do. We've now got a defence with plenty of height, power, pace and experience in both boxes - concede fewer and score more from set pieces.

Roll on next season, I say!

 

[Ninos]

1 hour ago, uttoxram75 said:

JB is very unlucky. I'm sure there's a decent player in the right formation there somewhere. The problem is that he is not as good as Bryson, Hendrick, Thorne or Hughes so he'll always be judged  against them.

Bryson - ability to close opponents down, time his runs beyond the forwards to get in the box and superb finishing.

Hendrick - great passer, link up, strong runner and excellent skill, times his runs into the box well, possibly better finisher than Bryson.

Thorne - great vision, reads the game and intercepts potential danger quickly and efficiently, strong in the tackle and can pass through the eye of a needle to open up defences. Has a decent shot and often hits the target from outside the box.

Hughes - most naturally gifted midfielder of his generation, balance, control, quick thinking and quick feet, brings others into play while out thinking several of the opposition at the same time, ultimate team player.

Butterfield - can't time runs like CB, not got the skill or power of JH, can't do the GT role and doesn't have the quickness of thought or ability of WH...

We had the best midfielders outside the Prem, all good enough to play at that level imo so JB was never going to improve on what we had. He was bought by Clement to try and do a job until Bryson and Hughes recovered from injury. To expect him to be as good as any of those four is totally unfair on the lad as he just doesn't have the ability.

 

Brilliant summary of the centre mids. What of Johnson? Thoughts on Elsnik and Hanson ? 

[RamBamFan]

JB has the potential to be a quality player for us. He can use both feet, can pass and shoot. As many have already he said, he just needs that 'cutting edge'. Can see him playing regularly next year.

[Warren Hobhead]

6 hours ago, Andicis said:

I agree with large portions of your post, I think Butterfield has a role to play next season, and I think some fans treat him unfairly. That being said, I don't think comparing him to Hughes off one bad season is a good way to go about putting forward your point for Butterfield, as after all, in your post you mention Butterfield has had a bad season goal tally wise, which is a perfectly adequate point, however you must surely make the same allowance for Hughes? 

I'm also interested in which one you think heads the ball better, I honestly couldn't answer that one, since neither is necessarily known for their prowess on heading.

Overall, it's a good post, we need to get behind Butterfield now Hughes is gone, we need a technician in the middle of the park. I'd like to see Butterfield show more of the form from the 15/16 season now, and push on. 

I did make the same allowance for Hughes. As I said, neither of the midfielders had what you'd call a good season. There was no consistency from any one of them. I even referenced Russell too. He struggled badly out wide. I think the squad as a whole suffered from the four managers in charge last season and the changes that brought. 

I think it's fair to say the year before that Butters shone the brightest in midfield with GT. So I like to think he can get back to that kind of form, and others too can find their best game.

We shall see. I think JB will have a big season here. But it's down to him to show that.

[DesertRam]

With a regular place, I reckon he'll make a lot of critics eat their words.

[ram59]

Remember Butterfield takes quite a few corners, which adds to his backward pass statistics! 

[cheron85]

I think he'll have needed to do ALL the running over pre-season then

Anyone else of the opinion the Butters wasn't as fit the last 2 years as the rest of our midfielders? I always felt we got 60 mins out of him and then he just faded out of the game - Apart from when we asked him to sit deep and not do as much running...

If Rowett has this intention to up the running/fitness of the side I thought Butters would be a luxury...

[tomsdubs]

Butterfield under Clement was lethal, remember Hull away? He showed in that game he was a quality player. Feel like he hasn't been used right since, he's very much an attacking centre mid, wants to be high up the pitch. His ability with both feet means he can shoot, pass and spread balls either side, gives him a huge advantage. I rate him, good enough to take us up if used properly. Rowett seems to like him.

[metalsheep02]

Just watched the interview on official site. Is that the first time he has been interviewed since he has been here?

Comes across as a bright down to earth lad. 

He didn't do enough for me last season but hopefully he can be a key player this season.