Chris Martin - joined Reading on loan until the end of the season

[Duracell]

17 minutes ago, Parsnip said:

Yeah but the 2 creams have just had loan spells at Riddings Rovers and didn't really impress - we wouldn't want to go into the last few games aiming for second with a developing striker. I reckon GR has an ace up his sleeve - if Martin is sold, someone exciting will be coming in.

If you want a small squad - which we're told is the aim - then that's the reality. You've got to have faith in those sorts of players and take the gamble.

I don't think Clough would have been so quick to offer Hendrick, Hughes, O'Brien, Bennett or Ball first-team debuts if he'd had the budget to have a larger squad.

Not sure anyone at the club is claiming we have to go back to those days, when only half a dozen injuries forced Nigel into naming a bench of Alberto Bueno's earlobe, half the squad from the U12s and the bust of Steve Bloomer. But all the same, taking a bit of a blind leap with completely untested young pros is a need sometimes, and for every Ball or O'Brien you throw in, you get a Hughes or Hendrick.

You can sometimes tell when a player is going to make it when they're at youth level, and sometimes you can be sure they won't. But every now and again you get players that inexplicably swim rather sink at pro level despite not tearing up any trees at youth level. You can't write any of them off for struggling at a non-League club where we don't know the context.

If we have three pukka first-choice, big-name pros gunning for one position up front then you can pretty much wave goodbye to the whole small squad thing or any half-decent academy striker getting a sniff at starting so much as a cup game. I'd much rather we sold Martin and reinvested elsewhere, and wouldn't even be bothered if we didn't invest the money at all.

[brady1993]

40 minutes ago, Duracell said:

If Martin goes, do you need to replace him?

If we're after a first team squad of 22 or fewer, there's space for 2 strikers maximum. Winnall and Nugent.

Shouldn't our third choice striker be the cream of the crop from the Academy? Isn't that the vision anyway?

If (and it's a big if) Martin goes, I'd go after somebody who takes Nugent's place in the first team. Somebody who fits what Rowett wants in a striker and is better than Nugent. 

In my opinion when selling off squad players you should look to improve your first team as it is the only you really progress as a side. I realise that this isn't always possible but given that if Martin was sold I'd expect a substantial fee, that's the route Id look at.

[Duracell]

Just now, brady1993 said:

If (and it's a big if) Martin goes, I'd go after somebody who takes Nugent's place in the first team. Somebody who fits what Rowett wants in a striker and is better than Nugent. 

In my opinion when selling off squad players you should look to improve your first team as it is the only you really progress as a side. I realise that this isn't always possible but given that if Martin was sold I'd expect a substantial fee, that's the route Id look at.

In response to your first paragraph, the player who replaces Nugent is entirely dependent on the league we're playing in next season. We could easily reinvest the Martin fee exactly and find a younger, fitter Nugent who can learn from him and harry and press Championship defenders into mistakes. But that's not good enough if we're promoted. The striker we'd need to do that job would be able to do all of that plus an extra skill set, would cost an 8 figure sum, and is entirely out of our reach so long as we're in this league.

The problem with your second point is that this is exactly what we've done for the past few seasons - sold a player, and immediately spent money to replace the player in the short term. As a result, we're putting out teams with an average age of 29, and essentially need to build an entire new side in the next 3-4 years. The exciting 13-14 side was largely made up of young professionals who were largely untested before putting on a Derby shirt, but we turned players like Martin, Hughes, Hendrick, Keogh and Bryson into big-name second tier players.

I disagree that constantly spending money as soon as you sell a player is the only way to progress - it's one way, but not the only way. I'm not saying we should go back to how we did things half a decade ago, but I don't think we should sell Martin and go out on spend £5-7m on a third choice striker who could be rendered useless in 6 months time if we're promoted anyway.

[Parsnip]

6 minutes ago, Duracell said:

You can't write any of them off

Nah I'm not writing them off at all. I want them to succeed at Derby and break though.

But the stars are aligned this season for a top two finish - if we're playing Championship football next season due to an injury to Nugent or Vydra it will be gutting to think we sold Martin and didn't replace him.

[Duracell]

Just now, Parsnip said:

Nah I'm not writing them off at all. I want them to succeed at Derby and break though.

But the stars are aligned this season for a top two finish - if we're playing Championship football next season due to an injury to Nugent or Vydra it will be gutting to think we sold Martin and didn't replace him.

If that were to happen, obviously I'd be the first smug idiot to post on here posting angrily with the benefit of hindsight that we should have replaced Martin...

Whatever you do, it's a gamble though. As I posted above, if we are promoted, we could end up with an decent, expensive Championship strike force that's completely useless in the Premier League. Or if we gamble and Nugent, Vydra and Winnall all get injured then we've been the architects of our own downfall.

I hate the January transfer window. It's *****.

[VulcanRam]

1 hour ago, rynny said:

Let's flip that question, we are winning 1-0 with 10 minutes to go we are under the cosh, Nugent is down who would you prefer to bring on? Bent or Martin?

Bucko

[Duracell]

Just now, VulcanRam said:

Bucko

Still prefer Russell Anderson in that role tbh.

[RamLad1884]

1 hour ago, jimbobram said:

One of the most over rated players I have seen since Freddie Adu

Certainly not worth the £16 mill Leicester payed for him, but would be a solid player at this level plus has the potential to improve 

[VulcanRam]

10 minutes ago, Duracell said:

Still prefer Russell Anderson in that role tbh.

I always liked Russell Anderson, felt he was underrated by a lot of the fans  

[brady1993]

37 minutes ago, Duracell said:

In response to your first paragraph, the player who replaces Nugent is entirely dependent on the league we're playing in next season. We could easily reinvest the Martin fee exactly and find a younger, fitter Nugent who can learn from him and harry and press Championship defenders into mistakes. But that's not good enough if we're promoted. The striker we'd need to do that job would be able to do all of that plus an extra skill set, would cost an 8 figure sum, and is entirely out of our reach so long as we're in this league.

The problem with your second point is that this is exactly what we've done for the past few seasons - sold a player, and immediately spent money to replace the player in the short term. As a result, we're putting out teams with an average age of 29, and essentially need to build an entire new side in the next 3-4 years. The exciting 13-14 side was largely made up of young professionals who were largely untested before putting on a Derby shirt, but we turned players like Martin, Hughes, Hendrick, Keogh and Bryson into big-name second tier players.

I disagree that constantly spending money as soon as you sell a player is the only way to progress - it's one way, but not the only way. I'm not saying we should go back to how we did things half a decade ago, but I don't think we should sell Martin and go out on spend £5-7m on a third choice striker who could be rendered useless in 6 months time if we're promoted anyway.

I agree with a lot of what you have wrote and having re-read my own post I don't think it conveys exactly how I feel about the situation so allow me to clarify a little. 

First of all my primary position would be to not sell Martin unless a crazy offer came or if Martin was pushing for a move. With the four forwards we currently have I think we have more than enough quality and a good balance for options. And I only want us to actively look at improving our forward line if we went up. 

With that said if say a silly offer came in for Martin and we accepted. Then I would put the money towards a forward  (having given this a bit more thought it honestly could be any of the four forward positions) who is clearly an improvement on the current first team. 

In my opinion (And I dislike saying this) now is not the time for trying to playing untried and untested players. The league is relatively weak and we sit on the edge of the playoffs and the automatics. A quality addition now really could be the edge we need to solidify an automatic position. 

However I'm with you on the front that I really wouldn't want to see the money spent on somebody who will just be a rotation option because at that point you haven't really gone anywhere as a squad.

[Leicester Ram]

Just get to the end of the season and sort it out then. If I'm being honest, I'd like to see both Martin and Nugent sold regardless in the summer. Get some younger strikers in who suit Rowett.

Our striking options are working right now, we're not going to get great value for Martin in this window and even if we did we'd then have to scramble around to find a replacement. Messing around in this window very rarely has you in a strong position, very rarely. 

The one thing I think has pushed us to be better than a lot of us expectedly is the stability around the club and team. I'd be very cautious to give that up.

Nugent is a good plan A and Martin's a solid plan B. We've won games with both. It's not broke, no need to fix it.

[Parsnip]

1 hour ago, Duracell said:

I hate the January transfer window. It's *****.

Ha I love it I do! Especially when something actually happens.

[Sparkle]

3 hours ago, thekingofbuxton said:

If we don't need to cash in then personally I wouldn't sell anyone, strength in depth will be invaluable in the run in.

7m would be very tempting for nearly anyone in the squad though, and I'm sure it would be accepted if we needed to raise funds before redeveloping the squad in Rowetts vision. 

There is always the 'other' factor to consider, unhappiness from any player not currently playing?  Would him want to force a move away? I'm sure his newish contract is very healthy, it's unlikely to be much better anywhere else?

We would get anywhere near £7 million would we

2 hours ago, Duracell said:

In response to your first paragraph, the player who replaces Nugent is entirely dependent on the league we're playing in next season. We could easily reinvest the Martin fee exactly and find a younger, fitter Nugent who can learn from him and harry and press Championship defenders into mistakes. But that's not good enough if we're promoted. The striker we'd need to do that job would be able to do all of that plus an extra skill set, would cost an 8 figure sum, and is entirely out of our reach so long as we're in this league.

The problem with your second point is that this is exactly what we've done for the past few seasons - sold a player, and immediately spent money to replace the player in the short term. As a result, we're putting out teams with an average age of 29, and essentially need to build an entire new side in the next 3-4 years. The exciting 13-14 side was largely made up of young professionals who were largely untested before putting on a Derby shirt, but we turned players like Martin, Hughes, Hendrick, Keogh and Bryson into big-name second tier players.

I disagree that constantly spending money as soon as you sell a player is the only way to progress - it's one way, but not the only way. I'm not saying we should go back to how we did things half a decade ago, but I don't think we should sell Martin and go out on spend £5-7m on a third choice striker who could be rendered useless in 6 months time if we're promoted anyway.

I agree with all of that and I would also be happy if we gave new contracts to Thorne and Russell because if nothing else they are both very sellable whichever league we are in and it just makes financial sense to me

[Cool As Custard]

6 hours ago, Duracell said:

If Martin goes, do you need to replace him?

If we're after a first team squad of 22 or fewer, there's space for 2 strikers maximum. Winnall and Nugent.

Shouldn't our third choice striker be the cream of the crop from the Academy? Isn't that the vision anyway?

Very sensible post - fully agree especially as we also have Bent who is more likely to nick a goal out of nothing if coming off the bench late on

Take the money & wait until the summer for another when we know what league we will be in next year 

[rynny]

If we sell Martin amd don't replace him against Sheff Wed the only strikers we will have are Nugent, Vydra and an unfit Bent or an under 23, at best. If Nugent or Vydra is suspended or injured then we will be struggling.

Also come the end of the season we will have Vydra and Nugent, who will be 33. Winnall will have returned to Sheff Wed and Bent is out of contract.

[Nuwtfly]

28 minutes ago, rynny said:

If we sell Martin amd don't replace him against Sheff Wed the only strikers we will have are Nugent, Vydra and an unfit Bent or an under 23, at best. If Nugent or Vydra is suspended or injured then we will be struggling.

Also come the end of the season we will have Vydra and Nugent, who will be 33. Winnall will have returned to Sheff Wed and Bent is out of contract.

Funny how quickly we could go from looking really good up top, to pretty shaky, isn't it?

We'd definitely need to replace Martin this month if we sold him. We needed to replace him properly when we loaned him out to Fulham too. I'm hoping we don't get a repeat! 

[Carnero]

29 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Funny how quickly we could go from looking really good up top, to pretty shaky, isn't it?

We'd definitely need to replace Martin this month if we sold him. We needed to replace him properly when we loaned him out to Fulham too. I'm hoping we don't get a repeat! 

I'd keep Martin too, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him leave without replacement - Weimann may well be used as additional cover for the Nugent role.

 

[Leicester Ram]

5 minutes ago, Saul Pimpson said:

I'd keep Martin too, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him leave without replacement - Weimann may well be used as additional cover for the Nugent role.

 

I think Russell would be more likely, seem to remember Rowett sticking him there a few times at the end of last season.

[Rev]

Bye Chris.

Thanks for your efforts over your time here, a big part of one of the more impressive teams we've had recently.

Shame you're not in Gary's plans, but he's earned the right to manage as he pleases.

Good luck.

[Ellafella]

2 minutes ago, reveldevil said:

Bye Chris.

Thanks for your efforts over your time here, a big part of one of the more impressive teams we've had recently.

Shame you're not in Gary's plans, but he's earned the right to manage as he pleases.

Good luck.

Hear hear. Too good a player to waste away.