How big are Derby?

[ilkleyram]

This thread about "How big are Derby" has been hijacked into a Nigel Clough debate. Going back to the original question, we are capable of maintaining a mid prem position. We are easily as big in terms of support as Fulham, West Brom, Stoke, Swansea, Norwich and the rest already mentioned.

 

When we return to the prem the missing fans will return, we'll get 30,000 in each week no problem. We'll fill away ends, people who go regularly now will miss out to the returning fans.

 

Twas ever the case.

 

Uttox, I agree. 

 

I also agree with the broad point that Wilko was making about the hangover from the Premiership season but Gstar made an equally good point yesterday that there was a hangover from the immediate aftermath of that season regarding the lack of investment - either there wasn't any more money or the board felt that they had had their fingers burnt and weren't prepared to take a significant financial risk, either with their money or the financial 'security' of the club (mindful that we are still in debt and, apparently, running at a loss). Or perhaps a bit of both.  That change of strategy then affects us now.

 

I think that historically we are a 'big club' but as others have pointed out so are the likes of Preston and Blackpool except their 'history' goes back further in time than ours. If I have a concern it is about the future and our ability to be a big club in the future is fast diminishing; not gone but disappearing.

 

The problem is money and the PL, TV and all the rest of it.

 

Just look at the Football gossip pages on the BBC website and see the figures being touted for players, mainly foreign.  We can have crowds of 30,000 plus every week and not be able to support that level of expenditure, with wages/add ons etc, and minimise our losses.  The money through the gate is no longer the significant factor. 

 

And then look at the impact of one of the most significant changes made to the funding of clubs since it was agreed that home clubs keep all their gate receipts, and consider the parachute payments made to those relegated from the PL and the impact, not over the next two or three seasons but over the next 5 to 10 seasons. In that time, if we haven't made it to the PL then the gap may well be too big to breech.  There will be too many clubs in the Championship (if it's not a PL2 by then) with parachute payments distorting the current rough equality of the division.  Look at QPR now - yes, they have a gambling chairman and manager (gambling with the future of the club as well) but they are also backed by parachute payments.  How on earth could they have considered buying Scott Parker, never mind everyone else, if they hadn't?

 

And to be a 'big' club in the future rather than an historical one (important though that is), we have to be in the PL.

 

Then, of course, comes the next problem.  How do you become a 'big' club in PL and European terms, or do you accept, like Everton perhaps, or Villa, or Fulham, or Newcastle, that mid-table is your goal? Or survival (God how I hate modern day PL managers that talk merely of 'survival' and 40 points as their aim). Under the current system do we really stand a chance of playing in Europe short of winning a cup, or being a runner up when the top 4 clubs will come from a pool of 6 clubs max?

 

How do you break into that group?  Well Spurs have spent £90m reportedly this close season to do just that (on top of multi-millions spent over previous seasons without success) but maybe they will fund that by the sale of Bale (is he a 'cast off'/are Spurs a selling club? Discuss).  Perhaps we need to improve the Academy, develop our own Gareth Bale. And call him Will.

 

Football doesn't half depress me at times!

[Pearl Ram]

It depresses me an' all at times Ilkley but then along comes a team like Wigan that wipes the smile off the faces of one the the big boys and I think maybe, just maybe we COULD get to a cup final one day.

 

And sadly, I think that's the best we can hope for, I mean, Liverpool, for all their history and tradition have missed the boat (in my opinion) the best they can hope for is a place in the Thursday night cup, so what chance do any club like ours stand to gatecrash the top 7 and bring European football back to the city ?

 

I still believe we are in the top 20 in the country albeit trying to recover from a serious case of mismanagement from managers/owners alike.

 

Yeah Cardiff, for example, are in The Premiership and good luck to them but are they bigger than us ? Are they fook, I reckon being one of the founder members of the league gives the club a kind of gravitas or kudos that should be respected but unfortunately for us, to all those that believe Sky invented football in 1992, we will only be remembered as the team to go down with the lowest points tally recorded for the top division which as we all know is not a true representation of one of the finest clubs in the land.

[WilkoRam]

There's a host of clubs out there who see themselves as being bigger than they currently are. Huddersfield, to use one example, won the top tier league three times in a row. Should they consider themselves to be higher than they currently are? That they have some right to be up there or considered a big club? They've won the league more times than us. In a list of Enlgish teams judged on the trophies won we are 24th tied with Preston. Behind the likes of Burnley, Huddersfield and Portsmouth. If I came on here and said that any of those three were bigger clubs than us I'm sure it would get laughed at. We judge ourselves by our last achievements though.

No team has this right to be a big club or consider themselves a big club if they currently aren't. Every club is judged by their recent history. The further in the past your success is, the less relevant to the current status it is.

[Pearl Ram]

And that ladies and gentlemen concludes this thread.

[DesertRam]

Desertram - to say we would be getting 40,000 now is a comment that I would save for B4 to make. It really is laughable.

We would only be getting that if ticket prices were a tenner for every game.

 

 

I dont think so, if we were getting 30000+ watching us get hammered every game, is it a stretch for a further 10k

if we are a comfortable mid-table prem team, with top eight/Europe as a goal??

[WilkoRam]

I dont think so, if we were getting 30000+ watching us get hammered every game, is it a stretch for a further 10k

if we are a comfortable mid-table prem team, with top eight/Europe as a goal??

I would say 40k was a reasonable estimate for our attendance should we be in that position.

However, the longer we spend losing fans from games the longer it would take to get them back.

[Mostyn6]

I would say 40k was a reasonable estimate for our attendance should we be in that position.

However, the longer we spend losing fans from games the longer it would take to get them back.

 

I disagree. We were woeful the season before Billy Davies came in, much much worse than right now. But the fans flocked back as soon as they sniffed a bit of glory.

[Mike]

There are 92 big clubs in England so yes we are a big club.

However, there are a million ways to be successful and each club needs to find their own way. Swansea for passing and pace, Stoke for bullying, West Brom for style of play etc.

If Clough had arrived at Derby 10 years ago I believe that we would be in a lot better position than we are now. Sustainability is something we need at the moment, not to be spending money.

I personally do not think that Clough has the experience to take us to that level we deserve to be at, but he has the football knowledge to turn our club into a profitable business On the pitch and On the training ground.

Everyone around Derby has a business head On at the moment and in the long term I believe it will show.

[rammieib]

40,000 is a far fetched number because the city doesn't support that number.

Add to that the fact prices have gone up even more so over the past few years then that 30,000 is a dream number.

Even if we were top of the Championship we would only be looking at 25,000 with the odd game getting a few thousand more.

Sadly we have priced fans out now. 21,000 for opening day was depressing.

[May Contain Nuts]

They should really stop announcing it on the big screen every game as if they're proud regardless. I'm pretty sure it can't be a requirement, can it?

[MuespachRam]

We will never get 40,000, never ever, the fairy tale of building another tier on the stadium is crazy talk, it wil never be used.

[cheron85]

We will never get 40,000, never ever, the fairy tale of building another tier on the stadium is crazy talk, it wil never be used.

 

When we were in the Prem we filled the ground every game didn't we?

 

So since it's not like we can add individual seats, if we think we could get say 35,000 fans in then surely it would be worth expanding the ground to the 42,000 capacity that used to be quoted...

[McRamFan]

The size of Derby (just the city and unitary authority) is just over 30 sq miles, so quite small on city size scales, how we are still bigger than Nottingham at just under 29 sq miles.

[Bridgford Ram]

I dont think so, if we were getting 30000+ watching us get hammered every game, is it a stretch for a further 10k

if we are a comfortable mid-table prem team, with top eight/Europe as a goal??

Different subject, but it still grates that we finished in a European worthy position in 88/89 when the ban started. Could've kept Maxwell interested and investing. Where could we be today?

[ilkleyram]

Different subject, but it still grates that we finished in a European worthy position in 88/89 when the ban started. Could've kept Maxwell interested and investing. Where could we be today?

Might have kept him slightly more interested Bridgford, but he didn't have any money to invest. It was all other peoples' and their pension funds

[gcdcfc28]

We would fill a 40,000 seater stadium with ease if we were to get back in the Premiership.

Look at every home game in "that" season, despite being embarrassed each and every week we still managed 33,000.

I also think a vast majority of the fans would turn up soley to see the Bales, Rooneys and Mata's of the world in town.

We are a big club if you're talking fanbase, but we aren't a big club (at the mintue) when it comes to attracting big name players of the Eranios and Stimacs mold - although I'm certain the time will come round one day.

Play good football, win games, show abit of ambition in the market and the fans will come simple.

[RodleyRam]

I think in the wider footballing world (fans of other clubs, pundits, ex pros etc.) Derby would still be considered a big club. I'd certainly put us in the top 20 clubs in England in terms of history, potential, fan base etc. Sadly at the moment we're not realising that potential in terms of league status and therefore our fan base is down to the core group.

I genuinely think if we could gain promotion and attract some real talent we could sustain the stadium upgrade and average home gates of 35-40k. I think a sustained push for promotion would see attendances rise back up to the late twenties and we'd easily sell out every game in the first prem season regardless.

I think we can be an established prem club with ambitions to go higher.

I did write more than this but lost the text. Ultimately I think that we need to start realising our potential in terms of league position and the other stuff (fans, respect from other clubs, attracting better players etc) will come.

I think were on the right track we just need to turn our potential into reality and be the club we all want us to be...

[voyager1]

I don't think we're a big club any more as we haven't won anything...

But to me we are fooking huge!

Does this mean Swansea are a bigger club than Arsenal? After all, Swansea won the Capital One Cup whilst Arsenal are yet to win a trophy at the Emirates.

[Alph]

Does this mean Swansea are a bigger club than Arsenal? After all, Swansea won the Capital One Cup whilst Arsenal are yet to win a trophy at the Emirates.

You know what he means though

[PrivateDerby]

Does this mean Swansea are a bigger club than Arsenal? After all, Swansea won the Capital One Cup whilst Arsenal are yet to win a trophy at the Emirates.

Well that's the thing isn't it, we can all say we're a huge club and I suppose we still are, what with our big ground, good training ground, good fans but we we haven't won anything and that's what we all want isn't it? Size or success?