How big are Derby?

[PrivateDerby]

I thought this was going to be similar to the 'How fit are Derby thread' which would have been a step too far...

Jake the snake.

[davenportram]

100% agree with this comment, especially the then board seeing £££££ signs, and we still have fans that clamour to have them back.

The League of Gentleman - they did a fantastic job for the club. Got us promoted and then couldn't really fund our stay in the Premiership. They borrowed against guaranteed income and provided as much as they could for the manager. It is not their fault the manager spent the money on players with little or no premiership experience and bought players he had managed at Preston (Lewis and Davies) that weren't good enough to get them promoted.

 

Defenders that had been involved in relegations form the premiership or had been playing at championship level were never going to keep us up.

[Mostyn6]

 

 We were top at Christmas and then by signing players in January the side cahnged and we ended third. You mention Pearson being recruited and helping us get to the top of the league - yet he joined us in January.

 

It could be argued that when Billy was given money in January he made the team worse.

Andy Todd - 146 appearances over 7 seasons with premiership clubs - loaned out to championship level at least twice and involved with 3 relegation seasons. Never first choice - Hardly proven premiership

 

Andy Griffin - 65 starts  in 6 seasons at clubs in the premiership - loaned out to the championship to stoke prior to joining us. Hardly Proven premiership eperience

 

Kenny Miller - 17 carrear starts in the premiership prior to joining us -Not a proven premiership experienced payer.

Add to that Davies (18 premiership starts) and Earnshaw (22 premiership starts) and you see how little actual experience he added to the squad.

 

Im not saying with more money he couldnt have found better players but to say the ones he signed had proven premiership experience is plain wrong. Maybe if instead of going on Holiday for a few weeks after the plaly off final and whining about being behind in the transfer market he might have been better employed not going on holiday and letting us fall further behind.

 

 

I dont understand why you say "this board" it was the previous board that provided the initial funds for the premiership season. maybe Billy would have been able to add better quality to the squad than Jewell did in the January when fresh signings were sanctioned.

 

Maybe the LOG could only secure funds based on guaranteed income and only had limited budget available in the close season - perhaps it wasnt a wouldnt sanction but a couldnt sanction scenario

 

Okay, I have it in my mind that Pearson arrived in similar fashion to Jones and Bywater, but I got one wrong. Why do you say we got worse? Could it not be that our fixtures in November were easier than other months? Not all 23 opposition teams are equal, and they say the cream always rises to the top. Yes it was frustrating watching us lose ground on both Sunderland and Birmingham, but we still finished 3rd. Which is an accomplishment considering the previous season.

 

My 'this board' meant 'Derby board (as opposed to Sunderland's), and the likes of Andy Todd had just been player of the season at Blackburn, maybe twice. Griffin had 2 seasons of trying to break through at Newcastle before establishing himself, and the others had effectively had at least a season of involvement. I have stated that this was a recruitment drive based upon risks and gambles. What do you expect? Palace have just signed Chamakh.... a total risk.

 

And finally.... why the hell shouldn't the little twerp have a holiday? He worked without an assistant for the season, won promotion and was then being messed about by his employer and the broken promises.

 

For promotion alone, he deserved a holiday. The perverse thing is, had he walked away straight after Wembley, instead of holding out for a pay-off, he wouldn't be deemed as such a failure by bitter Derby fans.

[davenportram]

Okay, I have it in my mind that Pearson arrived in similar fashion to Jones and Bywater, but I got one wrong. Why do you say we got worse? Could it not be that our fixtures in November were easier than other months? Not all 23 opposition teams are equal, and they say the cream always rises to the top. Yes it was frustrating watching us lose ground on both Sunderland and Birmingham, but we still finished 3rd. Which is an accomplishment considering the previous season.

 

My 'this board' meant 'Derby board (as opposed to Sunderland's), and the likes of Andy Todd had just been player of the season at Blackburn, maybe twice. Griffin had 2 seasons of trying to break through at Newcastle before establishing himself, and the others had effectively had at least a season of involvement. I have stated that this was a recruitment drive based upon risks and gambles. What do you expect? Palace have just signed Chamakh.... a total risk.

 

And finally.... why the hell shouldn't the little twerp have a holiday? He worked without an assistant for the season, won promotion and was then being messed about by his employer and the broken promises.

 

For promotion alone, he deserved a holiday. The perverse thing is, had he walked away straight after Wembley, instead of holding out for a pay-off, he wouldn't be deemed as such a failure by bitter Derby fans.

The players you quote never established themselves in a premiership team - They never played more than half a season of games. Which either means they weren't first choice or were injured a lot. Either way not proven experience at all. In your own words Griffin tried and failed to break through.

 

We dont know if the board broke any promises - he did have an assistant just wasn't Ned Kelly, its part of being a manger to work hard and if necessary cut holidays short. Three weeks holiday why not just one? especially after moaning about how far behind the curve on transfers we were.

[May Contain Nuts]

For promotion alone, he deserved a holiday. The perverse thing is, had he walked away straight after Wembley, instead of holding out for a pay-off, he wouldn't be deemed as such a failure by bitter Derby fans.

 

This is perhaps true. I honestly wish he had ****** off straight after promotion, in hindsight.

...once he got back from his holiday the real problems began.

 

You talk about being denied sufficient money in comparison to other teams - again this is true. BUT:

Did he still have sufficient funds to fo a better job than he did? Yes, I think so.

 

Did he accept that he had a budget and focus on doing his best with what he was given, for the good of the club?

 

Did. He. ****. He whined and whined about money, he put out a team with none of the heart and fight that got us promoted in the first place, he deliberately made his position untenable and did whatever he could to absolve himself of blame, and to a degree it worked. We didn't want to believe that he would sacrifice our team's performance for his own agenda, but that's exactly what he did, and exactly why he deserves absolutely no respect from Derby fans, because he had absolutely none for us.

 

That said, it wasn't all his fault either, and then Jewell made it even worse!

[CumbrianRam]

We would be in a much worse position financially if we didn't go up, esically considring a bit of the PL money was already spent in January 2007.

 

Promotion should have been the first building step to a stable PL side, like West Brom, Sunderland etc when they flipped between leagues, it never happened mainly due to a poor plan and it has been an uphill battle since we lost the parachute payments, FFP might help but again parachute payments teams will get an advantage.

[Spanish]

This is perhaps true. I honestly wish he had ****** off straight after promotion, in hindsight.

...once he got back from his holiday the real problems began.

 

You talk about being denied sufficient money in comparison to other teams - again this is true. BUT:

Did he still have sufficient funds to fo a better job than he did? Yes, I think so.

 

The thing that got me was that he moaned about everybody else having the certainty of where they were playing next season.  Then he compounded our disadvantage by pi55ing off on hols.

[Asanovic]

I don't think of us a big club, and haven't done for about 15 years.

 

But to blame it on the current board and manager is absolutely laughable, unless you're too young to remember every single owner between Pickering and the current regime.

 

I also think it's nonsense that owners are put off buying us because of 07/08. If you look at midlands clubs, you'd go for Villa and those dirty b*stards down the road before you head our way - which is exactly what's happened with Lerner and the Kuwaitis. Clubs with history of winning European trophies, with a chance to restore them to former glory, are far more attractive than a club like us with an extremely short period of winning trophies at domestic level only. Leicester so far have been completely unsuccesful in their attempts to buy success. The boys with the real money want clubs with European history.

 

We're a club rebuilding. Southampton have done it, Portsmouth are doing it, Bradford have done it, Coventry will have to begin doing it at some point. Football is eating itself, and until the whole game as we know it (outrageous salaries, dropping attendances, supporter disengagement) stops still and regroups, it'll be a continuous cycle of adminstration > -10 points > relegation > 2 year rebuild.

 

In 10 years time I reckon 'big clubs' will be a small group of ten. Everyone else is then wide open to going bust at any moment. I think we'll be back in the Premiership and a steady midtable team like we were in the late 90s in the next 4 years - IF we keep as much of the current club management/ownership structure as possible. Or if we get some Arabian trillionaire fancying Derby as his next project.

[cheron85]

My old man an I projected what the premier league SHOULD be if you took regionality, history, attendance and other factors like rival sports and worked out that if we built a premier league on teams that should be there we'd only debatebly be in there... 20th or 21st choice we thought...

 

Man Utd

Man City

Liverpool

 

Newcastle

Sunderland

 

Sheff Weds/Utd

Yorkshire Scum

 

Villa

Birmingham

 

Ipswich

 

Cardiff/Swansea

 

Portsmouth/Southampton

 

Spurs

Arsenal

Chelsea

West Ham/QPR

 

Then 4 debateable ones:

Everton - on NW population they shouldn't be able to sustain so many clubs AND rugby league but historically have to include them

Boro - Population suggests they should have another NE club

West Brom/Wolves - Again, on population the west midlands should have a club

One club from the East Mids?

 

BUT London on population and football attendance probably needs more than 4 clubs...

 

AND that doesn't take into account that the SW and SE are almost certainly under-represented as they don;t have any decent clubs...

[GeneralRam]

If I had to choose 20 clubs to be in the PL they would be - 

 

Man Utd

Man City

Chelsea

Arsenal

Tottenham

Liverpool

Everton

Newcastle

Sunderland

Villa

Sheffield Wednesday

West Ham

Leeds

Derby

Forest

Bolton

Blackburn

West Brom

Fulham

Stoke

[Asanovic]

My old man an I projected what the premier league SHOULD be if you took regionality, history, attendance and other factors like rival sports and worked out that if we built a premier league on teams that should be there we'd only debatebly be in there... 20th or 21st choice we thought...

 

Man Utd

Man City

Liverpool

 

Newcastle

Sunderland

 

Sheff Weds/Utd

Yorkshire Scum

 

Villa

Birmingham

 

Ipswich

 

Cardiff/Swansea

 

Portsmouth/Southampton

 

Spurs

Arsenal

Chelsea

West Ham/QPR

 

Then 4 debateable ones:

Everton - on NW population they shouldn't be able to sustain so many clubs AND rugby league but historically have to include them

Boro - Population suggests they should have another NE club

West Brom/Wolves - Again, on population the west midlands should have a club

One club from the East Mids?

 

BUT London on population and football attendance probably needs more than 4 clubs...

 

AND that doesn't take into account that the SW and SE are almost certainly under-represented as they don;t have any decent clubs...

 

That's the kind of stuff that keeps me going, working out things like that. Bet you had a great time.

[Mostyn6]

That's the kind of stuff that keeps me going, working out things like that. Bet you had a great time.

 

kind of off-topic. but when you was a kid, did you ever used to do a dice cup draw?

 

List a load of teams, then roll the dice to get scores and run through to see who won the cup!

[Asanovic]

kind of off-topic. but when you was a kid, did you ever used to do a dice cup draw?

 

List a load of teams, then roll the dice to get scores and run through to see who won the cup!

 

Yes! Flipped coin too. So happy you mentioned that, I forgot I ever used to do it!

[cheron85]

That's the kind of stuff that keeps me going, working out things like that. Bet you had a great time.

 

Made a sunday evening stuck in traffic on the M1 back down to London a lot more bearable!

[Mafiabob]

kind of off-topic. but when you was a kid, did you ever used to do a dice cup draw?

List a load of teams, then roll the dice to get scores and run through to see who won the cup!

Did either of you used to do the dice game with cricket too? Roll a 5 and batsmen could be out, Roll again for how so 2 was caught 4 was lb 6 was bowled 1 and 3 was not out

[Mostyn6]

Did either of you used to do the dice game with cricket too? Roll a 5 and batsmen could be out, Roll again for how so 2 was caught 4 was lb 6 was bowled 1 and 3 was not out

 

I didn't fall for cricket until adulthood so no.

[Mafiabob]

The League of Gentleman - they did a fantastic job for the club. Got us promoted and then couldn't really fund our stay in the Premiership. They borrowed against guaranteed income and provided as much as they could for the manager. It is not their fault the manager spent the money on players with little or no premiership experience and bought players he had managed at Preston (Lewis and Davies) that weren't good enough to get them promoted.

Defenders that had been involved in relegations form the premiership or had been playing at championship level were never going to keep us up.

Agreed a lot better than the 3 amigos, but wasn't these guys all Derby fans? They sold for I imagine a great profit and we've had one of them, albeit not last season, trying through press etc saying that he would release funds etc if he were running club and trying to make a bid to run the club again. I'm all for local ownership but if they had stuck with us and be here still I would have some more respect for them. Selling the club as quick as they did put a downer on them for me, just my opinion.

[cannable]

Norwich and Southampton have had relegations to the third tier and in the case of Soton, serious financial difficulties. They're both examples of clubs who have had chances to completely wipe the slate clean.

 

We've not really had the chance to bury the hatchet like that.

 

This^

 

I've always wondered what would have happened if we had been relegated in 08/09. All of our best players would have left sooner rather than later and the wage bill would have been reduced a lot quicker than it eventually took. Then Clough would have been in his element, picking up bargains from the lower leagues.

 

That's all that could be guaranteed in that scenario, but it certainly would have been interesting.  

[Gritstone Ram]

I don't think we're a big club any more as we haven't won anything...

But to me we are fooking huge!

I'm with PD massive to me.

[davenportram]

Agreed a lot better than the 3 amigos, but wasn't these guys all Derby fans? They sold for I imagine a great profit and we've had one of them, albeit not last season, trying through press etc saying that he would release funds etc if he were running club and trying to make a bid to run the club again. I'm all for local ownership but if they had stuck with us and be here still I would have some more respect for them. Selling the club as quick as they did put a downer on them for me, just my opinion.

We've had debates on how much was made and it appears not a lot. Although Peter Gadsby (yes I said it) kept development rights for the Plaza and it us his company that's doing the work on it.