How big are Derby?

[Bridgford Ram]

The start of the new Premier League season has got me thinking, why are teams like Southampton, Fulham, Cardiff, Crystal Palace, Hull, Norwich, Stoke, Sunderland, West Brom and Swansea in the top flight while we are tottering along in Championship mid table?

Have these clubs been better run by a chairman willing to back his manager, have they been bankrolled? Are they managed better than Clough does for us or have they had a lucky break somewhere along the way? Or, am I just deluded to think that Derby are as big as the teams mentioned above?

Taking the list one by one - and ignoring Cardiff, Crystal Palace and Hull for the moment as they have only just gone up;

Southampton - have spent over £30m on quality proven internationals but I wouldn't say they are bankrolled - more spending what they have earned to progress (Brayford fee anyone?). They seem to have got to the Premier league through solid management (Atkins), momentum from League 1 promotion, a decent chairman and a decent academy (the likes of Bale, Walcott and AOC have all brought in large fees plus Lallana and now Shaw and Prowse are contributing to the first team). They have now added one of the worlds most promising managers, indicating that they felt they had outgrown the unlucky Atkins.

Fulham - they are an established Premier League team, maybe in the early days under Mo' they could have been classed as bankrolled, but al-Fayed has not spent outside the clubs means for many years (who knows about the new chairman though). They don't stick with managers and don't produce a lot of their own talent. They just seem to survive with style each year.

Norwich - I am not sure how they have done it but they seem to have spent big on players attracting the attention of bigger clubs, Fer for example and seem to have added a lot of quality to the team that at one point had the second longest unbeaten run last season, behind Barcelona. Again they seem sensibly run by a chairman that will spend what they have and earn rather than bankrolling. They had what appears to be a good manager in Lambert, and benefitted from momentum with double promotions. Not a great manager and very little in the way of youth produced.

Stoke / Sunderland - again, both seem to have a chairman who is willing to spend, and I believe Stoke have one of the highest net spends in the Prem without really accumulating much quality, Crouch, the criminally under used Palacios and the underrated Cameron aside. Sunderland also seem to spend heavily and under Bruce they seemed on the edge of European spots with Bent and Gyan scoring goals. Since they were sold though, managers have come and gone. Neither seem to bring through many players of their own, with only Shotton & Wilkinson (Stoke) and Colback (Sunderland) springing to mind.

West Brom - they now seem that established I can't remember when they last went up. They seem to be defensively sound and have benefitted from the excellent management of Hodgson and Clarke. They don't seem to spend big and don't seem to produce academy players. In fact how do they do it?

Swansea - this is the club that should make all decent sized Championship / league One teams jealous. 10 or so years ago they were 92nd in the league - dead bottom. Now they are in Europe, signing £12m strikers and Spanish internationals (Hernandez). They have been lucky with an excellent series of mangers all willing to continue what Roberto Martinez started (have they been lucky or does their chairman check that the manager will carry on the philosophy of the previous manger to avoid play overhauls?). They again have a chairman willing to reinvest and seem to create their own players such as Britton, Davies etc.

To me it seems we are almost there, we are sensibly run as a club, we have a decent manager, we

have a great academy - I think we now just need the board to back the manager and spend some money using the likes of Swansea and Southampton as models.

What do you guys think?

[PrivateDerby]

I don't think we're a big club any more as we haven't won anything...

But to me we are fooking huge!

[Leicester Ram]

I thought this was going to be similar to the 'How fit are Derby thread' which would have been a step too far...

[DcFc Dyycheee]

we're the biggest midtable championship team anyway. 

[Duracell]

I think a lot of people underestimate the impact of being the worst team ever. It's not something you recover from overnight.

 

Yes, I know Sunderland did it, but they got 15 points. Not 11. But it's what happened after with Paul Jewell in the Championship, where we signed even more crap players, that was so hard to put right.

 

We've now spent half a decade trying to eradicate that. Promotion hasn't really seemed part of that plan - more just killing off anything to do with that season. We've also killed a lot of ambition along the way.

 

Also, look at a lot of the clubs the OP mentioned, and they have rich owners. They've been taken over by people who wanted a nice little project. However, Derby are still associated with that Premier League season. We're just not going to be bought by a sugar daddy, we're unattractive to anyone. And that's if our current board would sell anyway.

 

And finally, here's one thing that no one will mention. Jim Smith. We've never properly replaced him. All the other clubs have had a manager who's been able to take them to the top flight and has either left behind a team that can stay up or done the job himself. We've not had that this century.

 

The Derby County timeline since the turn of the millennium is a story of horrendous decision after horrendous decision which we're still paying for now.

[GeneralRam]

I think a lot of people underestimate the impact of being the worst team ever. It's not something you recover from overnight.

 

Yes, I know Sunderland did it, but they got 15 points. Not 11. But it's what happened after with Paul Jewell in the Championship, where we signed even more crap players, that was so hard to put right.

 

We've now spent half a decade trying to eradicate that. Promotion hasn't really seemed part of that plan - more just killing off anything to do with that season. We've also killed a lot of ambition along the way.

 

Also, look at a lot of the clubs the OP mentioned, and they have rich owners. They've been taken over by people who wanted a nice little project. However, Derby are still associated with that Premier League season. We're just not going to be bought by a sugar daddy, we're unattractive to anyone. And that's if our current board would sell anyway.

 

And finally, here's one thing that no one will mention. Jim Smith. We've never properly replaced him. All the other clubs have had a manager who's been able to take them to the top flight and has either left behind a team that can stay up or done the job himself. We've not had that this century.

 

The Derby County timeline since the turn of the millennium is a story of horrendous decision after horrendous decision which we're still paying for now.

 

You say Jim Smith.... but we have suffered a massive decline since McClaren left as number 2.

[Duracell]

You say Jim Smith.... but we have suffered a massive decline since McClaren left as number 2.

True, yes I think I'd actually pin point that as the start of where it all went wrong.

[gcdcfc28]

"What makes a big club?" that's the question I'm always asking.

Is in the wealth, the history, the fanbase or is it solely based on league positioning?

[Hinzy9]

Unambitious owners and a poor manager = mid-table  mediocrity

[DenbyRam]

Unambitious owners and a poor manager = mid-table  mediocrity

 

+1 

It's all very depressing. 

[Duracell]

Unambitious owners and a poor manager = mid-table  mediocrity

I never used to buy this but I'm increasingly thinking this may be the case. Well, maybe not a poor manager, but not a manager good enough for Derby County.

 

But he's probably our second best manager since the millennium. That says how far our standards have dropped. Since the year 2000, we've had 13 years and 8 managers. I think Billy Davies was a disaster for the club given the team he built in the Premier League, and he did far more harm than good for the club, so I don't think you can say he was a better manager for us than Clough. Apart from Burley, the other five managers have all been losing managers who have either barely kept us up or relegated us from the Prem.

 

The reason why we're not competing with other clubs who were once of a similar stature to us is not as simple as blaming who's currently at the club. Whether they're helping or not is up for debate. But it's our past that still haunts us.

 

Norwich and Southampton have had relegations to the third tier and in the case of Soton, serious financial difficulties. They're both examples of clubs who have had chances to completely wipe the slate clean.

 

We've not really had the chance to bury the hatchet like that.

 

As for what makes a big club, it's a combination of things. I think it's more to do with the stature of the club and how it's thought of. For example, Pompey are a bigger club than Gillingham in the league above...that's obvious. The whole point of talking about a club's size is its potential to be better than whatever position it is.

 

But club size is mattering less and less, and Derby's stature continues to fall. It's very worrying.

[Mostyn6]

Unambitious owners and a poor manager = mid-table  mediocrity

 

A good manager can still succeed with unambitious owners, IF I am right in my assumption you are suggesting that owners that won't spend silly money are 'unambitious'. If you look at recent history, it's always been the masterstroke of a manager, not the money of a chairman that has gained promotion.

 

I would say that in recent history, Clough hasn't been dynamic, positive, motivated enough to gain promotion, this may change though.

[Mostyn6]

I never used to buy this but I'm increasingly thinking this may be the case. Well, maybe not a poor manager, but not a manager good enough for Derby County.

 

But he's probably our second best manager since the millennium. That says how far our standards have dropped. Since the year 2000, we've had 13 years and 8 managers. I think Billy Davies was a disaster for the club given the team he built in the Premier League, and he did far more harm than good for the club, so I don't think you can say he was a better manager for us than Clough. Apart from Burley, the other five managers have all been losing managers who have either barely kept us up or relegated us from the Prem.

 

The reason why we're not competing with other clubs who were once of a similar stature to us is not as simple as blaming who's currently at the club. Whether they're helping or not is up for debate. But it's our past that still haunts us.

 

Norwich and Southampton have had relegations to the third tier and in the case of Soton, serious financial difficulties. They're both examples of clubs who have had chances to completely wipe the slate clean.

 

We've not really had the chance to bury the hatchet like that.

 

As for what makes a big club, it's a combination of things. I think it's more to do with the stature of the club and how it's thought of. For example, Pompey are a bigger club than Gillingham in the league above...that's obvious. The whole point of talking about a club's size is its potential to be better than whatever position it is.

 

But club size is mattering less and less, and Derby's stature continues to fall. It's very worrying.

 

 

I've read some shocking stuff on football forums in the last 7 years I've been posting, but this is up there with the most unfair comments I have read.

 

Let's look at the bigger picture on this. Billy inherited a squad with no strikers and several spaces. Went out and recruited Oakley, Leacock, Camara, Howard, Lupoli, Stead, Bywater, Pearson, Jones and got us top of the league with a quite modest cash outlay. We were organised, punched above our weight and won many games we wouldn't come close to winning right now under Clough's management. During this time, Davies was prevented from having his chosen assistant as the board wouldn't pay the compensation to Preston.

 

Upon promotion, Davies, clearly knew the squad was not good enough to compete in the Premier League, and tried to get the fans on his side by making his thoughts known. Whilst Sunderland were spending £10m on a goalkeeper, our board wouldn't sanction anything over £3.5m on a player, with Nugent, Kenwyne Jones, Jerome Thomas and many more crossed off the wishlist.

 

The then chairman held a celebration parade which culminated at Pride Park with the two quotes "we will take the Premier League by a storm" and "we are not going there to make up the numbers", whilst also promising "quality players". At the same time, certain members of the board had the pound signs in their eyes as they looked at doubling their investment within a year if they sold the club. Meanwhile Billy Davies was left scraping around in the bargain bin for players capable of competing at Premier League level, and in hindsight, it is easy to point at players and say they were rubbish, players like Andy Todd, Andy Griffin, Kenny Miller had proven Premier League experience. What was evident was the need for wide players, Sadly Eddie Lewis was all that this board would sanction. Whilst Sunderland allowed Roy Keane to spend over £40m on survival, Davies was expected to survive on risks. He will always be remembered for Claude Davis, but perhaps had he been given a proper budget, Davis wouldn't entered his mind! Jewell was perhaps the man responsible for ruining Derby's short-term future with his scattergun approach to signings. To say Davies isn't better than Clough is nonsense. Davies took on a tougher job with less quality at the club and got to the top of the league within 4 months!

[Duracell]

Sorry Mostyn, I just don't buy it. Not one jot. The squad Billy assembled in the Premier League would not have stayed up in the Championship.

 

And it wasn't just the signings. Anyone who saw the team in the Premier League must have recognised that something was seriously wrong at the club. I think Steve Howard, Matt Oakley and Darren Moore were the only players that wanted to be there.

 

Call me old fashioned, but I think anyone who played a part in creating the worst team in the history of English football, leaving the club in complete and utter turmoil, shouldn't be called a better manager than Clough whose record has been mediocre. I'm not praising Clough at all, although I don't see who else we should have appointed at the time. More making a point of the fact that Billy Davies has been a disaster for the club.

 

Boards giving managers no money is nothing new. I wouldn't have expected anything other than 20th that season. The manner in which we did it, however, is nothing short of a disgrace. And I don't believe it should be defended.

[Mafiabob]

I've read some shocking stuff on football forums in the last 7 years I've been posting, but this is up there with the most unfair comments I have read.

Let's look at the bigger picture on this. Billy inherited a squad with no strikers and several spaces. Went out and recruited Oakley, Leacock, Camara, Howard, Lupoli, Stead, Bywater, Pearson, Jones and got us top of the league with a quite modest cash outlay. We were organised, punched above our weight and won many games we wouldn't come close to winning right now under Clough's management. During this time, Davies was prevented from having his chosen assistant as the board wouldn't pay the compensation to Preston.

Upon promotion, Davies, clearly knew the squad was not good enough to compete in the Premier League, and tried to get the fans on his side by making his thoughts known. Whilst Sunderland were spending £10m on a goalkeeper, our board wouldn't sanction anything over £3.5m on a player, with Nugent, Kenwyne Jones, Jerome Thomas and many more crossed off the wishlist.

The then chairman held a celebration parade which culminated at Pride Park with the two quotes "we will take the Premier League by a storm" and "we are not going there to make up the numbers", whilst also promising "quality players". At the same time, certain members of the board had the pound signs in their eyes as they looked at doubling their investment within a year if they sold the club. Meanwhile Billy Davies was left scraping around in the bargain bin for players capable of competing at Premier League level, and in hindsight, it is easy to point at players and say they were rubbish, players like Andy Todd, Andy Griffin, Kenny Miller had proven Premier League experience. What was evident was the need for wide players, Sadly Eddie Lewis was all that this board would sanction. Whilst Sunderland allowed Roy Keane to spend over £40m on survival, Davies was expected to survive on risks. He will always be remembered for Claude Davis, but perhaps had he been given a proper budget, Davis wouldn't entered his mind! Jewell was perhaps the man responsible for ruining Derby's short-term future with his scattergun approach to signings. To say Davies isn't better than Clough is nonsense. Davies took on a tougher job with less quality at the club and got to the top of the league within 4 months!

100% agree with this comment, especially the then board seeing £££££ signs, and we still have fans that clamour to have them back.

[Mostyn6]

for starters, we aren't the worst team in the history of football at all, we were/are the worst team in top-flight history, which is a massive difference and leads me to the crux of the matter. Derby finished 20th in the country that season, which fundamentally means that 72 clubs were actually worse than Derby that season. You pay very little respect to the over-achievement of getting Derby promoted in the first place, or where we could be had we not achieved promotion. You seem to overlook the fact that we had owners unwilling to actually use their own money to fund transfers, but instead borrowed more money in the club's name with themselves as guarantor. I may be over-dramatizing it, but it's possible that Billy Davies, the poisonous little ****, saved Derby from some really hard times by over-achieving.

[G STAR RAM]

I've read some shocking stuff on football forums in the last 7 years I've been posting, but this is up there with the most unfair comments I have read.

 

Let's look at the bigger picture on this. Billy inherited a squad with no strikers and several spaces. Went out and recruited Oakley, Leacock, Camara, Howard, Lupoli, Stead, Bywater, Pearson, Jones and got us top of the league with a quite modest cash outlay. We were organised, punched above our weight and won many games we wouldn't come close to winning right now under Clough's management. During this time, Davies was prevented from having his chosen assistant as the board wouldn't pay the compensation to Preston.

 

Upon promotion, Davies, clearly knew the squad was not good enough to compete in the Premier League, and tried to get the fans on his side by making his thoughts known. Whilst Sunderland were spending £10m on a goalkeeper, our board wouldn't sanction anything over £3.5m on a player, with Nugent, Kenwyne Jones, Jerome Thomas and many more crossed off the wishlist.

 

The then chairman held a celebration parade which culminated at Pride Park with the two quotes "we will take the Premier League by a storm" and "we are not going there to make up the numbers", whilst also promising "quality players". At the same time, certain members of the board had the pound signs in their eyes as they looked at doubling their investment within a year if they sold the club. Meanwhile Billy Davies was left scraping around in the bargain bin for players capable of competing at Premier League level, and in hindsight, it is easy to point at players and say they were rubbish, players like Andy Todd, Andy Griffin, Kenny Miller had proven Premier League experience. What was evident was the need for wide players, Sadly Eddie Lewis was all that this board would sanction. Whilst Sunderland allowed Roy Keane to spend over £40m on survival, Davies was expected to survive on risks. He will always be remembered for Claude Davis, but perhaps had he been given a proper budget, Davis wouldn't entered his mind! Jewell was perhaps the man responsible for ruining Derby's short-term future with his scattergun approach to signings. To say Davies isn't better than Clough is nonsense. Davies took on a tougher job with less quality at the club and got to the top of the league within 4 months!

 

Davies can get any team into the play offs in this division but it will take him a bit of money and he doesn't care about jeopardising the long term future of the club.

 

You missed the £3million he spent on Earnshaw (who he then proceeded to play about 3 times) out of your calculations.

 

Imagine what people would be saying about NC spending £3million on a player and then not using him! It was bad enough when he signed Cywka on a free and then dropped him from his plans!

[bcnram]

I've read some shocking stuff on football forums in the last 7 years I've been posting, but this is up there with the most unfair comments I have read.

 

Let's look at the bigger picture on this. Billy inherited a squad with no strikers and several spaces. Went out and recruited Oakley, Leacock, Camara, Howard, Lupoli, Stead, Bywater, Pearson, Jones and got us top of the league with a quite modest cash outlay. We were organised, punched above our weight and won many games we wouldn't come close to winning right now under Clough's management. During this time, Davies was prevented from having his chosen assistant as the board wouldn't pay the compensation to Preston.

 

Upon promotion, Davies, clearly knew the squad was not good enough to compete in the Premier League, and tried to get the fans on his side by making his thoughts known. Whilst Sunderland were spending £10m on a goalkeeper, our board wouldn't sanction anything over £3.5m on a player, with Nugent, Kenwyne Jones, Jerome Thomas and many more crossed off the wishlist.

 

The then chairman held a celebration parade which culminated at Pride Park with the two quotes "we will take the Premier League by a storm" and "we are not going there to make up the numbers", whilst also promising "quality players". At the same time, certain members of the board had the pound signs in their eyes as they looked at doubling their investment within a year if they sold the club. Meanwhile Billy Davies was left scraping around in the bargain bin for players capable of competing at Premier League level, and in hindsight, it is easy to point at players and say they were rubbish, players like Andy Todd, Andy Griffin, Kenny Miller had proven Premier League experience. What was evident was the need for wide players, Sadly Eddie Lewis was all that this board would sanction. Whilst Sunderland allowed Roy Keane to spend over £40m on survival, Davies was expected to survive on risks. He will always be remembered for Claude Davis, but perhaps had he been given a proper budget, Davis wouldn't entered his mind! Jewell was perhaps the man responsible for ruining Derby's short-term future with his scattergun approach to signings. To say Davies isn't better than Clough is nonsense. Davies took on a tougher job with less quality at the club and got to the top of the league within 4 months!

Nobody could argue against Billy Davies being a top Championship manager but his recruitment of players for our brief stay in the top league was an absolute disaster. I am not complaining about their skill levels and agree that most had good experience. The fact is though that the character of many of them was appalling - they were just there for the payday. That is where I prefer the Clough way of doing things - little money to spend but get players in who will work for each other with no disruptive elements in the team.

[davenportram]

I've read some shocking stuff on football forums in the last 7 years I've been posting, but this is up there with the most unfair comments I have read.

 

Let's look at the bigger picture on this. Billy inherited a squad with no strikers and several spaces. Went out and recruited Oakley, Leacock, Camara, Howard, Lupoli, Stead, Bywater, Pearson, Jones and got us top of the league with a quite modest cash outlay. We were organised, punched above our weight and won many games we wouldn't come close to winning right now under Clough's management. During this time, Davies was prevented from having his chosen assistant as the board wouldn't pay the compensation to Preston.

 

 We were top at Christmas and then by signing players in January the side cahnged and we ended third. You mention Pearson being recruited and helping us get to the top of the league - yet he joined us in January.

 

It could be argued that when Billy was given money in January he made the team worse.

Upon promotion, Davies, clearly knew the squad was not good enough to compete in the Premier League, and tried to get the fans on his side by making his thoughts known. Whilst Sunderland were spending £10m on a goalkeeper, our board wouldn't sanction anything over £3.5m on a player, with Nugent, Kenwyne Jones, Jerome Thomas and many more crossed off the wishlist.

 

The then chairman held a celebration parade which culminated at Pride Park with the two quotes "we will take the Premier League by a storm" and "we are not going there to make up the numbers", whilst also promising "quality players". At the same time, certain members of the board had the pound signs in their eyes as they looked at doubling their investment within a year if they sold the club. Meanwhile Billy Davies was left scraping around in the bargain bin for players capable of competing at Premier League level, and in hindsight, it is easy to point at players and say they were rubbish, players like Andy Todd, Andy Griffin, Kenny Miller had proven Premier League experience.

Andy Todd - 146 appearances over 7 seasons with premiership clubs - loaned out to championship level at least twice and involved with 3 relegation seasons. Never first choice - Hardly proven premiership

 

Andy Griffin - 65 starts  in 6 seasons at clubs in the premiership - loaned out to the championship to stoke prior to joining us. Hardly Proven premiership eperience

 

Kenny Miller - 17 carrear starts in the premiership prior to joining us -Not a proven premiership experienced payer.

Add to that Davies (18 premiership starts) and Earnshaw (22 premiership starts) and you see how little actual experience he added to the squad.

 

Im not saying with more money he couldnt have found better players but to say the ones he signed had proven premiership experience is plain wrong. Maybe if instead of going on Holiday for a few weeks after the plaly off final and whining about being behind in the transfer market he might have been better employed not going on holiday and letting us fall further behind.

 

 

What was evident was the need for wide players, Sadly Eddie Lewis was all that this board would sanction. Whilst Sunderland allowed Roy Keane to spend over £40m on survival, Davies was expected to survive on risks. He will always be remembered for Claude Davis, but perhaps had he been given a proper budget, Davis wouldn't entered his mind! Jewell was perhaps the man responsible for ruining Derby's short-term future with his scattergun approach to signings. To say Davies isn't better than Clough is nonsense. Davies took on a tougher job with less quality at the club and got to the top of the league within 4 months!

I dont understand why you say "this board" it was the previous board that provided the initial funds for the premiership season. maybe Billy would have been able to add better quality to the squad than Jewell did in the January when fresh signings were sanctioned.

 

Maybe the LOG could only secure funds based on guaranteed income and only had limited budget available in the close season - perhaps it wasnt a wouldnt sanction but a couldnt sanction scenario

[Duracell]

for starters, we aren't the worst team in the history of football at all, we were/are the worst team in top-flight history, which is a massive difference and leads me to the crux of the matter. Derby finished 20th in the country that season, which fundamentally means that 72 clubs were actually worse than Derby that season. You pay very little respect to the over-achievement of getting Derby promoted in the first place, or where we could be had we not achieved promotion. You seem to overlook the fact that we had owners unwilling to actually use their own money to fund transfers, but instead borrowed more money in the club's name with themselves as guarantor. I may be over-dramatizing it, but it's possible that Billy Davies, the poisonous little ****, saved Derby from some really hard times by over-achieving.

We may not be the worst team technically, but the fact is, that is what we are known for. It's the tag that still overhangs the club. Whether or not there has been a worse team depends on what you consider. The only two teams who have ever been so grossly inadequate for the league they competed in were a Loughborough team in the old Division Two in the late 19th century and a Doncaster Rovers side in the third tier in the early 1980s. Then it's Derby.

 

We over-achieved in the first half of that season mostyn but our Premier League disaster began in January 2007. We finished third and in the end, we were miles off the quality of the rest of the top 6, and we weren't the better side in any of the three play-off games. Billy Davies deserves a lot of credit for that but by then he had already got us into a sticky situation. By April 2007, we looked like a mediocre Championship side. But we were in the playoffs...

 

As for 72 teams being fundamentally worse - do you really think that Stoke, for example, were fundamentally worse than Derby? How about the Preston team which beat us 4-1 at home?

 

I don't see how that side would have stayed up in the Championship, I really don't. It was a team that looked second best to Championship teams in the Cup.

 

I know the board were mainly to blame. But Billy Davies played his part. Everyone did. Creating a team that horrendous involves more than one culpable party (the players themselves also being a factor).