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Woodley Ram

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    Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

    in Derby County Forum

    Posted

    2 hours ago, NottsRammy said:

    I have already siad this is going to be the case we have either got it totally written off or its been reduced by half but i think getting this we have had to accept no appealing on the over spending charge .Personally think its got to be -6 + -9 = -15 or just -9 . 

    The -9 makes the lovely man in middlesborough happy but he wont half be hopping about on the admin charge failing lol . 

    Think this is going to happen as there are bigger wheels turning with the people who want to takeover and hmrc getting their slice as well .Alot is going off behind the scenes the idea of the panel being independant is laughable .It might be independent but the result isnt its already in the brown envelopes . Just like the brown envelope that made sure there wasnt an accountant on the 2nd hearing .

    Trust me its all already sorted . 

    I sort of agree with you. I think it will either be a compromise or our case will be blown out of the water and we will be done like a kipper 

    Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

    in Derby County Forum

    Posted

    16 hours ago, Pearl Ram said:

    I got in there Glyn, only posted twice mind - what I’m saying is, if I can get on there anybody can. I am to IT what Mel Morris is to responsible football club ownership. 

    I put some of the supporters of other clubs in the same bracket as the current climate change protestors, ill informed and unable to see anything other than their own views which (as the information is limited) is a bit blinkered. I know they will say the same about us and yes in some cases that is true.

    This is what I have picked up especially from the BCFC forum.

    1. The amortisation was very bad and the fine was not good enough. The EFL needs to take this into account when any other FFP penalties are issues.
    2. We got away with murder with the sale of the stadium and have cheated. IF and only if the stadium is sold to the new owner at a discounted rate then we should be sent back to a tribunal for possible points deductions. Not sure they can do that, isn't there a double jeopardy law for this?? If that happened (the sale back to new owners) I can understand why people wouldn't be happy with that. Also a point here the EFL did originally sign it off and asked for a small reduction which we adhered to. 
    3.  We have cheated for years, overspent for years and we should have our feet put to the fire for it, made an example. Well the amortisation whilst legal for other businesses is not for the EFL. We didn't hide the amortisation (that's how it as picked up) but we could have been a lot clearer (that's why the fine was low).
    4. We haven't been trying it on with the EFL for years. They took us to a tribunal and lost, they appealed and won the amortisation part. From this we had to resubmit the accounts which we did.
    5. We didn't submit our accounts to the EFL on time, agreed that's because of the appeal and redoing them. however we could have been quicker (just my point of view), but it really wouldn't have been that much quicker.   
    6. We didn't pay transfer fees on time. Yep not the only ones to do that
    7. We didn't pay wages on time. Yep about 3 weeks late and we received a penalty for that. Others were far worse (SWFC)
    8. We didn't pay HMRC, agreed and we got a transfer embargo for that (and the others)
    9. We went into administration and appealed. Sorry are we not allowed to do that? Isn't that in the rules or doesn't that apply to us? Do we have a case, yes, will we win probably not. Also our case is different than Wigan's and I would say stronger.
    10. We should get a bigger deduction than Reading because of not paying bills (HMRC) and the amortisation. Even though they have a far bigger FFP over spend and I don't really care if they are greatly overspent next season. 
    11. We need a sustainable business plan. I agree and our operating costs have been greatly reduced with a wage bill in the bottom 3-4 in the Championship. Everyone should have aa sustainable business plan. The Gumps and BCFC have been lucky that they have sold players for really large sums, if they hadn't they would be in the FFP naughty room.
    12. Lets talk Covid. If teams are going to get debts written off for FFP(I think Stoke was +£30m) due to Covid then it has to be due to a Force Majore event, which I believe Covid is.  You cannot use it for that but not for the reason why we are in administration. If Covid was the reason (and I am saying If) then we should not get a penalty. The fact others haven't gone the same way is irrelevant. there is no law in the land that states that an owner has to cover very large losses and if he cannot for what ever reason then you go bust. Trust me I would rather we were never in this situation.
    13. Wycombe and Gibson asking for money. Fine , I still don't think its going anywhere. It it does I think QPR and Aston Villa will still be in the statute of limitations window to sue both of them for going up instead of us. I think that (play off finals) would be a stronger and bigger case (£100m each ). I do however think that this is not the way to go.
    14. people need to look at other things, Readings FFP  losses, who they have signed for peanuts (effectively a free loan), Fulham deferring payment of Wilson for 2 years.
    15. All we ask for is a level playing field based on facts and not conjecture 

    Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

    in Derby County Forum

    Posted · Edited by Woodley Ram

    17 hours ago, Woodley Ram said:

    Well one thing we now know pop is reading our posts, not an issue I have read theirs. 
     

    so pop, agree with you if PP is sold back at a discount, as Anne Widicombe would say it has something of the night about it. Still unsure  If the EFL have any power. Anyway this sis all conjecture at the moment.

    yes we do want a sustainable business plan where we keep within FFfP limits 

    Pop all we want is to be treated like others FFP ( we only had one high spending year) the rest we financed by sales. How can people talk about Reading getting a smaller  Deduction than us when they overspent by tens of millions, we didn’t 

    we are trying to bypass anything but I  would not blame a new owner for trying to get a points  Deduction 

    why don’t you come on this site and debate it

    Hi Pop,

     

    I see you have responded to me on the BCFC website

    I have quoted you below so everyone can read.

    Happy to respond to a constructive post by a poster on there. I can't join btw, not allowed. Possibly not a surprise given some of my past rants...emotive or similar but also biting back as I do bite back when I get unwarranted flak as most people would.

      Quote

    Well one thing we now know pop is reading our posts, not an issue I have read theirs. 

    Suppose for both parties the worse thing about being quoted or not spoken about might be not being quoted or spoken about. 

      Quote

    so pop, agree with you if PP is sold back at a discount, as Anne Widicombe would say it has something of the night about it. Still unsure  If the EFL have any power. Anyway this sis all conjecture at the moment.

    It would be an interesting test case IMO. Not sure the EFL would appreciate it to say the least and a new owner getting off to a bad start with the EFL couldn't be positive- although I wonder if they could separate out the two bits as part of the business plan.

      Quote

    yes we do want a sustainable business plan where we keep within FFfP limits (WR)

    Yep, spend up to remaining headroom once all outstanding issues sorted- talking about Jan, seems fair to me. There's a lot to sort though and I'm not even talking about the ground here. we don't want boom and bust its not good for the old ticker.  We had one stupid year where we signed players for large sums and large wages and didn't get  return on them.  The others years we have more or less traded on a net basis.  We have for the last two years operated on a small operating budget. Wages are probably circa £15m. The damage had already been done. 

      Quote

    Pop all we want is to be treated like others FFP ( we only had one high spending year) the rest we financed by sales. How can people talk about Reading getting a smaller  Deduction than us when they overspent by tens of millions, we didn’t  (WR)

    You'll find no arguments from me on Reading- I was criticising Reading a year and a half ago! Plus Stoke I have to question how the hell they justify that £30m Impairment, hopefully the EFL are scrutinising each and every penny of that. Reading, the thing there is that as with all clubs the 2019/20 and the 2020/21 results are added and halved. On the 3 years to 2019/20 in isolation, absolutely but we don't know how the 2020/21 might look but I thought they should be nailed for a 9 pts, although some reports said 6 and a further 3 suspended- reports suggested that Reading owning up and cooperating has helped.  We (Mel) only submitted our accounts for a negative FFP after the immortalisation issue and did it on time. we had submitted them before but rightly was asked to submit them again showing a straight line methodology. (Note here. All player valuations ended in zero and didn't have a residual amount. The issue was that the amortisation was done more on a bell curve with higher amounts up front rather than on a straight line). We have since been in discussion (like Reading) with the EFL. The only issue we had was the appeal and Mel not being quiet. You shouldn't be penalised for that.  I think Reading should get more they are so far over is ridicules

    I agree the Covid impairment and how losses affect FFP (P&S) is a worry. The EFL need to come out with a rational of how they are dealing with it. (Advertising income, gate receipts, loss of entertainment other commercial activity) this should be hard as you should be able to see the loss from auditing previous years income. Also re Covid, the only way they can deduct amounts from FFP consideration is if Covid was a/is a Force Majeure. Otherwise teams should have planned for it and have taken steps to ensure that they remain within FFP (you can see where I am going here re admin appeal). BCFC must have lost £millions over the last couple of years so if you cannot deduct say the loss of £15-20m,ish from your FFP calculation then you will also be hit with an FFP points deduction?

    A difference between Derby and Reading is that the Derby 9 with 3 more suspended is deemed to be a final settlement or proposed as such- whereas the Reading one could just be a first instalment, I saw that as well as a deduction, renewal of players on existing terms could prove difficult and they could face a further deduction in the next year or 2. If they get a deduction and sell Swift in Jan say, they could slide into real issues on the pitch? Saw a stat other day, he has chipped in with goals or assists about 2/3 of the clubs League goals or 60%, something..out of contract in the summer! Think Blackburn and renewal might pose an issue with quite a few key assets although selling Armstrong has surely helped them to ease things.

    A troubling thing about Reading too? Rahman and Drinkwater loans, covered minimum 90% by Chelsea! Ridiculous! Their individual wage cap=£8.5k per week x 6 players, those 2 combined wages £170k so...no loan fees payable. Also suggest that for that wage level, Dann and Halilovic look suspiciously good players albeit signed on frees. I agree, add Fulham not paying for Harry Wilson for 2 years and others will also be pushing the boundaries with FFP and the ethics of it.

      Quote

    we are trying to bypass anything but I  would not blame a new owner for trying to get a points  Deduction  WR

    Do you mean removed or reduced? Suppose a new owner might try but given that the burden of failure with these issues lies with the club and not the owner, there is an an attempt at bypassing arguably- not now so much but the delays of accounts to the EFL, the alleged procedural defences in May 2021, to sell as a Championship club was possible. Sorry spell check on my ipad. we are not trying to bypass anything. If we are able to use the rules to get a reduction of points then that's ok. After all isn't that what other clubs have done Birmingham, Sheffield Wednesday and it seems Reading?

      Quote

    why don’t you come on this site and debate it

    Would if I could!

     

    Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

    in Derby County Forum

    Posted · Edited by Woodley Ram

    Well one thing we now know pop is reading our posts, not an issue I have read theirs. 
     

    so pop, agree with you if PP is sold back at a discount, as Anne Widicombe would say it has something of the night about it. Still unsure  If the EFL have any power. Anyway this sis all conjecture at the moment.

    yes we do want a sustainable business plan where we keep within FFfP limits 

    Pop all we want is to be treated like others FFP ( we only had one high spending year) the rest we financed by sales. How can people talk about Reading getting a smaller  Deduction than us when they overspent by tens of millions, we didn’t 

    we are trying to bypass anything but I  would not blame a new owner for trying to get a points  Deduction 

    why don’t you come on this site and debate it

    Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

    in Derby County Forum

    Posted

    11 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

    Strange fella.  if you go on a stag do you get a set of mates you know, some of the grooms family and workmates you don't know and you have that risky moment, 800 miles from home for two days, that you might be stuck on the first round talking to the most boring man on the planet, who normally never leaves his mums basement and latches onto you talking about FFP for 8 hours straight.  Your weekends done before it starts and your hammered by 9'0 clock to numb the pain . 

    Worse still, you'll be out randomly 5 years later and he'll tap you on the shoulder like he saw you yesterday and carry on the same conversation bar to bar till the clubs kick out. That's this guy.

    They (BCFC) have 43 pages on Derby, wow. The pop bloke has an axe to grind. They have an issue with the possibility of the ground being bought back by the club and a significant discount. I can see the issue with that and how it looks. They think the EFL should not allow It, I’m not sure they can do that? They think we are not talking about a future business plan. We are and we want it to be sustainable. They also think we have people on big wages , we don’t and haven’t done for a couple of years. Year on year we have reduced the wage bill. They also think we have been cheating for years. We had one year when we overspent 

    lastly they want to make fun of us when they come to PP. fine we will be waiting for you

     

    Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

    in Derby County Forum

    Posted

    Just spent time on BCFC forum. It’s interesting that people take the odd quote or something taken out of context and make something out of it. They are not alone with this, we do it as well sometimes. 
     

    they are somethings right and others not. We overspent for 1 year and the consequences of that and the high wages provoked the debt. It was a mad gamble that didn’t pay off.  The last couple of years our overheads have. been low, but the damage was already done.

    the amortisation was stupid, if Mel had been upfront and transparent then things would have been better. I still think it’s allowed under company rules but apparently not for EFL.

    the sale of the stadium was to circumvent FFP, lots of others have done it but not for that amount. 
     

    re the administration thing, it’s right to appeal. COVID is an FM event. However to be successful we will need to show that is was that and nothing else that put us into administration.  The problem here is that we don’t have all the facts. The debt itself is not the issue ( others have far larger debts and payrolls) it’s our ability to service that debt. Without Covid-19 would we have paid our bills. If yes then FM is the reason why we went into administration. If not then it’s a 12 point deduction.  Selling an academy player for £1m would have made no difference it’s the fact we had lost £20m to COVID.
     

    re Wycombe and Gibson, I really don’t think it’s an issue and they should be going to the EFL not us.

    it looks like we will get a new owner. We need to have a sustainable business plan with a combination of the academy system and the Brentford way of buying players.

    other clubs such as the Gumps and BCFC have been lucky they have managed to sell big to offset their buying we have not. We have to be better with who we buy and what wages we pay.

    Alan Nixon Breaks Silence on American Billionaire Bid

    in Derby County Forum

    Posted

    8 hours ago, rammieib said:

    Just seen that he’s posted on Twitter that “nottingham forest sucks” from a question a Forest fan has goaded him into not answering.

    Im sorry but this bloke has Alonso vibes all over him.

    I don’t want any potential owner putting that type of content out on social media. It’s simply not professional at all.

    What makes this worse, he isn’t even the owner yet. Appleby is being very professional as far as I can tell. This guy seems to be liking the attention a little too much already.

    Give him a chance, He has shown he has the cash to buy Derby. The Administrators have confirmed that. The fact that he is not the richest man in the world isn't an issue. We need to be run on a sustainable budget.

    I have no idea if he will be the owner but he is the type of owner that I would like

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