YorkshireRam

17 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

I think that’s what happens with regards to people categorising my stance, I’ve regularly looked to explain I’m more pro-patience than pro-Warne per se. I agree with those concerns around youth development that others voice, I don’t think he’s as adaptable tactically as he can be (often too slow to react to opponents tweaking things tactically, especially last season) and I spend pretty much every match thread crying out for subs.

Conversely I don’t think his signings have been all bad, I like that we score lots of goals more than we don’t, I like that we’re at the business end of the table with the chance to be promoted, I like that we’re a bit more athletic and robust cause I felt like we spent years being steamrollered by teams who had that in them when we were lacking it, I like that we win away etc.

As I say, sat on the fence of “he’s the manager for now, some of what he does I like, some of it annoys me, but I can accept it until such point that I can’t or it changes”. But yeah, people have and do identify me with an extreme I guess 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

Yeah sorry didn't mean to add to the dialogue pigeonholing you, just more of an example of how nuance can get lost when it becomes a case of people taking sides. I'm guilty myself, I've definitely defended Warne at times more than I feel he deserves, simply because I disagree with the extremity of criticism being levelled at him. I got very similar about Cocu as well, the issue there being the doubters ended up being correct. I try and use that as perspective for how even if the criticism is OTT at the time, in the long-run there may be validity in there. 

23 minutes ago, nottingram said:

You could copy and paste this almost word for word the other way about any number of different posters. It depends on your perspective. 

As in some may be more negative in response to some being overly positive/defensive about Warne? That's interesting if true, but does further show disagreement often just entrenches people in their existing opinion, rather than serve as a constructive dialogue that leads to more moderate stances on all sides. 

2 hours ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

I don’t find it irritating from a personal perspective, but I appreciate that some of my posts may be (rarely my intent), and also appreciate that there’s a nice cushion on my section of fence less impacted by the travel and financial commitments affecting others.

I have the stance that Warne is the manager for now, and that’s that. I accept it’s the present situation and will make the most of that until such time as it changes, he’s got some good qualities, and he’s clearly got some faults. I can tolerate it, especially if he delivers a promotion this season.

The crazy thing is, I fully regard you as pro-Warne. I know you're not and it's interesting thinking about it now that your sheer common sense stands at such odds with the rhetoric of the 'Warne Out' brigade that it makes you seem directly opposed to them... 

When I think about it, there's very few posters I would say are out and out 'pro-Warne', it's almost like the moderates have been radicalised into backing the manager more than they feel naturally, because of the ridiculous amount of negativity from the other side?

Just now, Chris_Martin said:

yes.

i gave him the 4 for the work rate he put in. How can you score him any higher than that when he didn't actually contribute anything else?

You get a proper rage boner for Collins don't you? 😂

17 hours ago, YorkshireRam said:

My only criticism of Max ties into this actually, and that is that he very rarely EVER looks the best player on the pitch. Northampton (H) this season I would argue was one of the only games I can remember with this being the case.

On 05/02/2024 at 19:19, i-Ram said:

One way or another he almost certainly wanted to kick on personally, and sorry everyone but Warne was not making him a better player, in fact he was making him look very average. We have lost our best player in my opinion.

You're going to have to explain that last bit to me as I'm genuinely struggling. Warne makes him look average, yet he's our best player... eh?

My take is that he's not our best player, but he probably has the highest ceiling due to his technical ability. I'd go so far as to say he's not even in our top 3 players- NML, Cashin, Nelson all rank above this season. My only criticism of Max ties into this actually, and that is that he very rarely EVER looks the best player on the pitch. Northampton (H) this season I would argue was one of the only games I can remember with this being the case.

However under Warne, he's currently having his most productive season in front of goal to date, whilst also demonstrating he has the capacity to be versatile and play a multitude of central midfield positions- his ability as an #8/10 had been untested prior to this season. He's shown improved dribbling ability and developed a more effective final ball, reflected in his stats. With 4 goals, 6 assists, I'm struggling to see how it could be argued Warne hasn't improved his attacking prowess? 

21 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

My comments are an expression of frustration because there we were playing them off the park (comparatively) and making them look ragged, but as soon as we scored that all stopped. And as I have said several times this isn’t an isolated case. We have switched the tap off immediately after scoring multiple times and paid the price. We are literally throwing points away, and therefore we may well be throwing promotion away because of stupid tactics. The players are simply doing what they are told. They have to or they get dropped. Hourihane excepted - he never gets dropped.

Do you really think Wilson was told to let his man run straight round him for their goal? Because if not, then I really can't see your point. Footballers really don't just 'do what they're told', it's a naturally intuitive game. Mistakes happen, that's why we drew on Saturday. Warne has subsequently come out and said he asked them to push for a second, when we actually sat back and invited pressure. So he's literally agreeing saying he'd coached them not to ''switch the tap off'' and you're still blaming him entirely...

Ideally we don't take Nyambe off, he probably blocks the wide man and we win 1-0. But we made a decision to rest a player carrying a knock and this sub caused initial confusion which unfortunately led to their goal. It was frustrating, and undeserved for them, but that's football.

One small positive for me was the welcome addition of some one-touch football through the middle of the pitch. Primarily facilitated by Bird and Adams, there was 2/3 moments where we passed through their midfield with precision and looked very dangerous. If we can expand on this in the coming games, we'll have a much more varied offense, which can only serve us well. 

Add to that: we've got one of the best wingers in the league to integrate into the side, Adams gelling into the midfield further, and our best defender on the ball to return tomorrow.

If we can put all the pieces together, there's no reason we can't go on another strong run of results and re\ally cement our league position- the next 2 games are crucial though!

19 hours ago, DavesaRam said:

The greatest difficulty is watching us muller Shrewsbury, get the lead, then stop and shut up shop. Ot was a stupid decision by Mr Warne. The dropped points are on him.

Except Warne said in his post-match presser he told the team to push for a 2nd goal. If the players began to play with trepidation at fear of conceding and this is all after half-time, what exactly is Warne supposed to do? In fairness, you could even argue his subs were attacking- which has been the main criticism of Warne from Saturday and you're saying the exact opposite...

This is the type of comment that irks me, because I cannot see how you've possibly completely absolved the players of responsibility there, and just blamed Warne. It makes no sense...?

1 hour ago, MadAmster said:

Isn't CBT also a doubt?

Oh missed that. Suppose there's still Barks, Wilson, and maybe even Ward as wingers if we want to play a back 4, or we could just use Barks up-top in a 2. 

2 minutes ago, TomTom92 said:

Back on the grass tomorrow apparently so depends how much Warne wants to risk him for Saturday.

If that's the case I'm not expecting him to be in the squad. Big chance for CBT to impress, maybe Wilson on the other side now Nyambe's back if we're playing with wingers?

1 hour ago, VulcanRam said:

First point - it has to be a large contributing factor in my mind, only because of my own experience. I'm in the South Stand, have always enjoyed the banter and enthusiasm. This season it's so quiet because games are just boring. Loads of people are just chatting among themselves. People are leaving 10 mins before the end of each half to either go downstairs or go home. At the Cheltenham game there were a few around us sitting down for periods, even though it meant they couldn't see the pitch. And that's down to the style of football - it might be effective, it's great that it's got us into the top 2, but it's not nice to watch for large periods. 

Second point, I totally agree, is also a large contributing factor. It's great to get promoted, but you're only going back to where you should be anyway. Just as an aside to your last paragraph - same manager and same football wouldn't, I imagine, lead to the same league position in the Championship at this stage of the season. Nonetheless, UTR!

 

 

 

Except this isn't a new thing... The home atmosphere has been dogsh!t for a while now, and I chalk it up to toxic expectation. I remember it really starting in 14/15, the first season people started assuming we'd finish top 2. It seemingly changed from unconditional support, to entirely conditional. The team has to do something to warrant cheering, rather than generating atmosphere to gee the players on.

I find it all very entitled. It's embarrassing when we come across as the fanbase that thinks they're better than they are. We should have a 'we're in league 1 so better roll our sleeves up and muck in'' whereas instead everyone is expecting champagne football and constant wins, and then literally boo'ing if we dare to have a blip... I think that reflects more poorly on our fanbase, than it does in any way on Warne or his football. 

12 minutes ago, David said:

Exactly. I mean come on, who would seriously oust a manager whilst 2nd in the table.....only the wife of a football manager looking for work and doesn't fancy living up in Aberdeen.

RoyMac5 playing 4D chess here

11 minutes ago, David said:

I’ve always this idea in my head that@RoyMac5 is Sharon Warnock.

Ah so the anti-Warne talk was just to try and oust him to get Neil a job closer to home. It all makes sense now!

4 minutes ago, Carnero said:

Agree, especially in his earlier games this season.

It may have something to do with the bad injury he suffered at Luton last season when going for a header?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/20292971/luton-sonny-bradley-reading-championship-injury/

Hopefully he's getting back in the swing of things now.

I've speculated before I suspect it's the confidence thing of how the injury occurred, but also the impact on his knees when landing. Double those up and it'd make sense why he's not leaping care-free for every header?

9 minutes ago, Eoghan1884 said:

I don’t think we will sign Gayle but if we did I think it’s a very similar reaction to this link as it was to the Jordan Rhodes link. Also a similar story for the player to that of Chris Martin. 

All three strikers were past bagsmen in the championship, then the goals dried up in the championship so Martin and Rhodes have dropped to league one and now can’t stop scoring. It wouldn’t surprise me if Gayle did the same thing if he was to drop to League one.

I do think Gayle would find space and get on the end of a lot of things in this division, could be a smart move for 6 months to help tie us over.

Worth noting as well Gayle was far better than Rhodes ever was, even at his prime. Age has always been a concern with these type of signings for me, but given this is the definition of a short-term signing, I think Gayle is about the best that's on offer- probably why it's maybe unrealistic to expect him to end up here? 

1 hour ago, Shipley Ram said:

He seems almost reasonable in most of this interview

I've always said, Barton isn't unintelligent, he's just a genuinely nasty piece of work. As others have said, the type of person I'd have been ashamed to have had playing for my club. This is the guy who stubbed a lit cigar in a youth player's eyelid, nearly blinding him. I don't really care if he occasionally makes valid points (even a broken clock etc.), we should be actively pushing for his removal from the game, as due to his transgressions, he's not a credible voice of authority on anything, oh except bigotry.

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

Too late he's gone to a bigger club until the end of the season.

I really didn't have RoyMac5 'trolling' on my 2024 bingo card but here we are 😂

An accurate summary of our current striking options:

36 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Because it's part of his job. Why do you think Clowes is still spending millions to fund the academy? No one other than the manager can make the decision on playing our academy players or not. If they aren't gmaking the step up to the first team then Clowes is wasting millions every year.

Unfortunately you can't prove that. Clowes may have instructed him that promotion was the priority, even at the short-term expense of the academy. Not sure I'm comfortable making big assertions like this without a shred of evidence either way. Not saying you're wrong but this kinda thing is so far behind closed doors that we really don't know. 

39 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

That's not really the point though is it? I've argued Warne has a histroy of choosing older players and failing to get reasonable money in on a consistent basis for the players he did sign. Peterborough, with a similar budget somehow manage to sign younger players and sell them for large amounts. If Peterborough can do it, then we should be able to too. The problem here is a manager unwilling to focus on youth - whether signing or bringing through from the academy.

Peterbrough don't just sign forwards to sell on for big bucks. They've also started bringing through players from their own academy - Edwards, Burrows and Jade-Jones are starting every week. One of them is a LB and another a CB.

I still don't get judging Warne on youth though. It seems to me Warne was recruited as a promotion specialist, his transfer strategy at Rotherham worked in getting them promoted and sometimes keeping them there, so he's using the same methodology here. If he's prioritising promotion over youth progression then I'm not going to criticise his recruitment patterns if it ends up in achieving this goal- which it still may. If he doesn't achieve it though, I suspect I'll largely agree with your sentiment. So much hinges on promotion this season. 

6 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Peterborough manage it with a similar budget to Rotherham

13 minutes ago, eddielewis said:

Yes a straight comparison isn't exactly possible with ourselves but Rotherham in my eyes are on par with Peterborough with their financial capacity yet they seem to do well with finding and improving young talent. Arguably Rotherham should be better placed with able to find young talent for their academy with bigger catchment of Sheffield/Yorkshire.

Peterborough also never managed to stay up in the Championship...

Surely it could then be argued Warne's strategy was more successful in regards to elevating the club's league position? Peterborough have a business model based around cashing in on their talent when they peak in value, but this does seem to limit their overall progression as a team as they can never build around their star players. 

The Brentford/Brighton-type models are the ones we'd ideally want to emulate, but they require investing in players before they're ready which requires serious money, and why no teams at his level can really do it. I think Warne's integration of our youth is probably the bit to be concerned about, if anything, rather than age profile of the transfers?

8 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Exactly. If Thompson had been given opportunities last season, we wouldn't have needed to sign White last January. It may have been a factor in not needing to use up some of the budget on Fornah in the summer too. Same applies for Robinson.

I( think back to Cashin's introduction to the first team. Honestly, I wouldn't have put him above L2 standard at the time, which is where I feel Brown is at now. Would Warne have started him, when we still had Davies, Forsyth and Bielik as the other options at CB? 
Would have have given Plange his debut when we still had Jozwiak and Stearman on the bench?
Would he have played Williams at LWB and Forsyth CB and leave Stearman on the bench?

Put simply, Warne's mentality is wrong for this club. Wilson's the youngest player he's permanently signed for us and he's 23. Out of his Rotherham signings who joined at a younger age, 

22/23:
None used. A 21 yo keeper played 45 mins under the following manager and has been a free agent since the summer

21/22:
None used, but signed a keeper who has since retired

20/21:
20 yo keeper who has been a regular starter

19/20:
20 yo LB who featured for 622 mins in all competitions over 2 seasons before being moved on
19 yo LW who got 176 mins
22 year old Ogbene who was as squad player in his first season, then got just 606 mins in the Championship the following season before being a regualr starter in L1 aged 24.
21 year old Olusunde who was as squad player for 2 years and has only set foot on a football field 3 times since.

18/19:
None signed

17/18:
22 yo CM who got 1832 mins in all competitions over 2 seasons before being moved on
20 yo CB who got 180 mins before being shipped out to non-league sides.
22 yo winger who got 242 in all competitions over 2 seasons before being moved on

16/17:
19 yo LB who got 1756 mins in all competitions over 2 seasons before being moved on

That's only 1 succesful young signing!!!

Given Rotherham's limited financial capacity, and the disparity between the quality of our respective academies, straight comparisons aren't necessarily fair given these differences. Players under 23 tend to be expensive to sign due to value added for potential; for a team constantly scrapping to keep its head above water, it makes sense they targeted players in their prime rather than youngsters that need developing before hitting their stride?

I'd give Gayle a 6 month deal. Solid backup and will probably still have a bit of class about him, also even if Collo stays fit and he barely features, he's got great experience for the younger lads to learn off. 

13 hours ago, Chris_Martin said:

taking away penalties, he has 9 league goals in 29 games. Worse than 1 in 3. 

What exactly makes him a 'star' this season?

Most people would regard their top scorer as one of the 'stars' of their team. Also penalty-taking is a skill not worth dismissing. 

15 hours ago, Raich Carter said:

You can't say "Sensationalism doesn't change the facts" and then in the next breath say "How many chances did he get against Cheltenham? 1... and he scored it". You are literally using sensationalism to change the facts!

Am I? An xG of literally 0 implies this isn't as sensationalist as you'd like it to be.