Ghost of Clough

This Saturday we'll be blessed by seeing [in Warne's own words] "the strongest bench in League 1 history". Sounds like everyone is fit apart from our trio of CFs (Wash, Wag and JJ)

3 minutes ago, Returning ram said:

Out of interest in the same period for Derby, how many have we had ?

If we exclude our U18/21 signings:

22/23:
19 yeo Rooney
19 yo Oduroh who was given limited game time by Rosenior, then binned off by Warne

21/22:
None signed

20/21:
22 yo winger - cost £4m, sold for £2m

19/20:
21 yo Bielik - cost £8m, sold for up to £1m

18/19:
None signed

17/18:
None signed

16/17:
None signed

Up until 2019, MM gambled on the experienced route. Some players such as Lawrence and Holmes just missed the age cut off. Whilst the plan was for any signigns aged 21 or youngesr to come throguh the U18/21/23 squads first - Hutchinson, Plange, Ebiowei (all excluded from my list)

14 minutes ago, Thameram said:

Etete Cardiff I reckon

Blackburn when waiting for McGuire to sign for them? Could have been Harry Leonard (who hasn't played much recently) or Niall Ennis who decided to join Stoke late yesterday.

10 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Apparently we can only sign players better than the ones other teams have recruited? An odd process. 😄 

Not just forwards, but this is the full list of January loans in League 1 (bold = players I think would have improved us).

GK: Louie Moulden, Jamie Cumming, Craig MacGillivray
CB: Caleb Taylor, Elkan Baggott, Sean Grehan, Andy Smith, Jack Shepherd, Elijah Campbell, Rhys Williams, Kacper Lopata, Zane Monlouis, Charlie Goode, Nigel Lonwijk
LB: Hayden Coulson, Nathanael Ogbeta, Tolaji Bola, Harry Boyes, Imari Samuels, Nesta Guinness-Walker, Luke Chambers, Saxon Earley
RB: Calvin Ramsay, James Gibbons
DM/CM/AM: George Byers, Brandon Aguilera, Harry Vaughan, Tyreeq Bakinson, Lewis Fiorini, Luke Harris, Ryan Woods, Gavin Kilkenny, Conor McGrandles, Jay Matete, Myles Peart-Harris, Jensen Weir, Dan Gore, Jack Hinchy, Chem Campbell
RW: Jonathan Leko, Michael Olakigbe
LW: Jack Diamond, Tony Springett, Alex Mighten
CF: Freddie Ladapo, Joe Hugill, Ola-Adebomi, Kyle Hudlin, Antwoine Hackford, Macauley Bonne, Joe Nuttall, Mo Eisa, Daniel Adu-Adjei, Khayon Edwards, Joe Taylor, Tyler Burey, Vadine Oliver, Charlie Kelman, Gideon Kodua
 

18 minutes ago, Animal is a Ram said:

There are other factors why we haven't seen as much of the youth.

I get the want to solely pin this on Warne, and his track record doesn't speak volumes to want to use them- leopard, spots, etc. - but it can be hard to shift that mindset when we've tasked him with finding near immediate league success.

A lot of the lads in the u21s were rushed from the u18s as a knock-on from the admin exodus, and have only had half a season at that level. Not only that, but there's been a lot of change in the academy hierarchy. That'll take it's time to settle.

We're still in rebuild mode as a club. Can only use that for so long, yes, but it doesn't exactly scream the most stable environment to safely develop these players - especially when the fans have the expectations that they do right now, can you imagine the reaction if Warne throws in a young player and doing so loses a game?

Which is understandable if they were being left out of the first team squads so they could play in the U21 games. However, more often than not they're left on the bench for when we go "3 or 4 up". Except the times we have been 3-0 up they've still been left on the bench. They also go unused in the cups.
DRobinson - 4 cup games on the bench and not used and left out completely for 3 cup squads. Left on the bench for Carlisle (2-0) and Barnsley (3-0).
DBrown - last minute sub in 1 cup game, 17 mins in another, but an unused sub in 5. Left on the bench when we were hoping to get more than a point against Lincoln (we only used 2 subs)

Fans are typically more patient when youngsters are put in the team. Warne could even use it as a reason why he needs more time. Stickign with his expereiecned players it's all or nothing -fail and he's sacked. If he introduced the likes of DRobinson and DBrown into the team he could point to that and say 1 more season and this squad will have improved and be enough to take us up.

1 minute ago, sage said:

After the unsuccessful signings, for various reasons, of TJJ, MW, CW, JW, SB and EE, has Clowes lost faith in our ability to spend money wisely?

The Bird transfer has obviously been in the process for weeks, yet no permanent signings lined up.

 

The process used for this season will need to be overhaulled. 12 summer signings and a further 2 in January, of which only 3 are likely to be regular starters is absolutely shocking (Nelson, Nyambe, Blackett-Taylor). This is also after the squad failed to place top last season, losing 3 of our first 11 (Roberts, Knight and McGoldrick) and not even having a right back in the entire squad.

It's summarised by having no long term vision. That's in terms of: a) bringing in younger players who will either maintain their current standards for longer, or have room for improvement; or b) planning how the players will fit into the team.

Warne put a clear focus on older and more experience players, based on the rationale of higher wages equates to better players. If more budget is put towards the wages, we'll end up with a stronger squad of players.
Warne also had no plan on how to fit the players into the team. This is demonstrated by early summer recruitment being with 3421 in mind, which quickly changed to 352, and then alternating between 442 and 4231 during the season so far. We signed a LB (Elder) to play as a wing back, but also signed Nyambe (RB) after already signing 2 wing backs. He also signed a slow CB who cannot play in a high line and is uncomfortable on the ball under pressure. We've basically got through from October with only 1 fully fit forward whowas 2nd choice last season and failed to improve on in the summer AND January.
The style of play our CF targets prefer also varied. Summer targets like Harris, Rhodes and Sharp all have different strengths and weaknesses. Similar with January targets such as Smith, Gregory, Mubama, Ennis. It's just a scattergun approach all round. Most of these targets compromise on the high intensity press Warne wants to implement too.

2 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

I still don't get judging Warne on youth though. It seems to me Warne was recruited as a promotion specialist, his transfer strategy at Rotherham worked in getting them promoted and sometimes keeping them there, so he's using the same methodology here. If he's prioritising promotion over youth progression then I'm not going to criticise his recruitment patterns if it ends up in achieving this goal- which it still may. If he doesn't achieve it though, I suspect I'll largely agree with your sentiment. So much hinges on promotion this season. 

Because it's part of his job. Why do you think Clowes is still spending millions to fund the academy? No one other than the manager can make the decision on playing our academy players or not. If they aren't gmaking the step up to the first team then Clowes is wasting millions every year.

6 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

But he is from Arsenal, a Premier League team, correct?

He is, but he isn't a 'youngster'.

7 minutes ago, Animal is a Ram said:

But that leads me nicely into:

23 minutes ago, Animal is a Ram said:

And then the money for new players that a new manager will inevitably want? This is the cycle that got us into this mess in the first place.

a) Would it impact who or how many players the next manager could sign? Even without a change in manager, we currnetly need to sign at least 10 first team players (or extend current deals). That's already a sizeable amount of wages freed up for the summer. Our budget would still be bigger than most promotion rivals - it just has to be used more effeciently (ie. don't risk a big chunk of it on several injury prone players).

b) The cycle was hiring the wrong managers. MM flipped between defensive managers to attacking ones, to possesion based ones. Some wanted players to suit a deep defensive line, others wanted to play a high line. The mess the club ended up in would have been fine with a clear plan in place and showed restraint in the transfer market. MM wanted to develop players through the academy, but he was also too impatient and would often have 3 first team players on permanent deals when we also had a U21/23 player on the fringes.

3 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Isn't TJJ on loan from Arsenal?

A player who turns 23 in 12 days time and Arsenal will be releasing at the end of the season?

21 minutes ago, Animal is a Ram said:

If there isn't the money for a new striker on a permanent, what makes you think there's money for a firing and hiring cycle?

There's a permananet pot, a loan pot, and a sack the manager pot. The first 2 pots were agreed with the EFL and cannot be exceeded. The EFL don't care about the third pot.

27 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

Peterborough also never managed to stay up in the Championship...

Surely it could then be argued Warne's strategy was more successful in regards to elevating the club's league position? Peterborough have a business model based around cashing in on their talent when they peak in value, but this does seem to limit their overall progression as a team as they can never build around their star players. 

The Brentford/Brighton-type models are the ones we'd ideally want to emulate, but they require investing in players before they're ready which requires serious money, and why no teams at his level can really do it. I think Warne's integration of our youth is probably the bit to be concerned about, if anything, rather than age profile of the transfers?

3 minutes ago, Archied said:

I may be wrong but I have always had the impression that Peterborough choose to play all out attack with the view to bringing in potential filled youngsters in attack to sell for bigger bucks , good as a money making model but not really building towards anything 

That's not really the point though is it? I've argued Warne has a histroy of choosing older players and failing to get reasonable money in on a consistent basis for the players he did sign. Peterborough, with a similar budget somehow manage to sign younger players and sell them for large amounts. If Peterborough can do it, then we should be able to too. The problem here is a manager unwilling to focus on youth - whether signing or bringing through from the academy.

Peterbrough don't just sign forwards to sell on for big bucks. They've also started bringing through players from their own academy - Edwards, Burrows and Jade-Jones are starting every week. One of them is a LB and another a CB.

9 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

Given Rotherham's limited financial capacity, and the disparity between the quality of our respective academies, straight comparisons aren't necessarily fair given these differences. Players under 23 tend to be expensive to sign due to value added for potential; for a team constantly scrapping to keep its head above water, it makes sense they targeted players in their prime rather than youngsters that need developing before hitting their stride?

Peterborough manage it with a similar budget to Rotherham

1 minute ago, Topram said:

Wow that’s eye opening that is, why would a young kid want to come here 

Then you look at Peterborough's squad. Only 6 squad members are over the age of 24. Only 1 of those is a regualr starter, 2 others are squad players, and the others are backup options.

From what I can see Warne also only managed to sell 4 players for over £500k when Rotherham manager - Ward (£1.6m to Cardiff), Ajayi (£1.5m to West Brom), Vaulks (£3m to Cardiff), Crooks (£1m to Boro). 

17 minutes ago, CBRammette said:

This as with other youngsters

Exactly. If Thompson had been given opportunities last season, we wouldn't have needed to sign White last January. It may have been a factor in not needing to use up some of the budget on Fornah in the summer too. Same applies for Robinson.

I( think back to Cashin's introduction to the first team. Honestly, I wouldn't have put him above L2 standard at the time, which is where I feel Brown is at now. Would Warne have started him, when we still had Davies, Forsyth and Bielik as the other options at CB? 
Would have have given Plange his debut when we still had Jozwiak and Stearman on the bench?
Would he have played Williams at LWB and Forsyth CB and leave Stearman on the bench?

Put simply, Warne's mentality is wrong for this club. Wilson's the youngest player he's permanently signed for us and he's 23. Out of his Rotherham signings who joined at a younger age, 

22/23:
None used. A 21 yo keeper played 45 mins under the following manager and has been a free agent since the summer

21/22:
None used, but signed a keeper who has since retired

20/21:
20 yo keeper who has been a regular starter

19/20:
20 yo LB who featured for 622 mins in all competitions over 2 seasons before being moved on
19 yo LW who got 176 mins
22 year old Ogbene who was as squad player in his first season, then got just 606 mins in the Championship the following season before being a regualr starter in L1 aged 24.
21 year old Olusunde who was as squad player for 2 years and has only set foot on a football field 3 times since.

18/19:
None signed

17/18:
22 yo CM who got 1832 mins in all competitions over 2 seasons before being moved on
20 yo CB who got 180 mins before being shipped out to non-league sides.
22 yo winger who got 242 in all competitions over 2 seasons before being moved on

16/17:
19 yo LB who got 1756 mins in all competitions over 2 seasons before being moved on

That's only 1 succesful young signing!!!

Just now, Barney1991 said:

Itk? 

He's not ITK. He just occasionally pretends to be for some odd reason. This time it's just his opinion

2 hours ago, IlsonDerby said:

People keep talking about Brown. He wasn’t ready. If he was ready there’s be a list as long as our arm of league 2 and even lower end league 1 clubs trying to get him on loan. He’s an exciting prospect but that’s all he is right now and was never going to be given a real first team role this season. 
 

TJJ what can I say, I was expecting it unfortunately. Seems to have no luck but Warne was rarely playing him on his own up top. More often he was playing him with Collins which meant we surrender the midfield. This will at least force him to play 1 up top which gives us more midfield. 

It's not Brown's technical or physcial abilities which are stopping him from being L1 ready. The groundwork should have been laid for him months ago, which could have been the difference between him being ready to step up to start the odd game for us in the league now.

Waghorn and Washington have both been out since October and there was a 4 week gap between John-Jules making his first appearance since September. We sort of did... he got 45 minutes playing with Collins in the Wolves U21 game when he would have been better paired with a creative player - even Weston, Allen or Wheeldon would have been a better choice (instead of Collins) to see what he was actually capable of. He then got 15 minutes as a late sub (again paired with Collins) against Northampton and only 1 minute since - he didn't even get a run out in the other EFL Trophy games since then. That was the 3-0 win over Fleetwood and the dysmal dispaly against Bradford.

If he was given more game time to ease him into life as a Derby first team player, we would have been able to make a fairer judgement on if he's capable of playing a few games for us this month or not. It's not as if John-Jules has done much of note since his last goal (he played in 10 games since)

1 hour ago, IlsonDerby said:

Wickham signed for a league one club last season didnt he before earning a move elsewhere due to his performances? 

He also hasn't played since last season and is made of glass. By the time he's fit enough to play, our other forwards will be back in the team anyway.

1 minute ago, IlsonDerby said:

Disappointing to not get a striker in but to put some perspective on the window. Our squad is stronger than before it was open. We have another wide option to take the strain off NML. We have a combative horrible midfielder. 
 

thats 2 out of the 3 targets fans all agreed we needed. 

We also guaranteed decent money without going down the tribunal route for Bird without losing him and weakening the midfield. 

I think the negative reaction is down to not getting a striker but if Wash is back training and Collins stays fit then we’ve got a striker with 18 goals + Warnes first choice striker as our 2 options. 
 

Would have loved an Ennis or Smith to tide us over but they only became crucial because of an injury list. 

We entered January with Collins, John-Jules and Brown as CF options and ended it woth just 1 of them available 

10 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I don't know much about the u21 strikers, that is why I asked the question. 

My only real recollection is that Warne was an awful manager 2 or 3 weeks ago for not playing Weston?

 

Weston's a #10 who has recently played on the wing to allow Wheeldon (who only just stepped up from the U18s) to lead the line

13 minutes ago, YouRams said:

Who's available on a free that's realistic and would actually improve us if we can't get anything over the line

Aleksandar Prijovic who we sold 13 years ago. Free agent since September.

Florian Kamberi scored 4 in 23 for Sheff Weds a couple of years ago in L1.

Dwight Gayle who hasn't scored more than 4 in a season for half a decade.

Connor Wickham who makes George Thorne look like he's made out titanium. Also hasn't played since last season.

Dwight Gayle now available on a free 😅

3 minutes ago, FlyBritishMidland said:

For all the talk about letting Brown go on loan, he’s gone to non-league.  Not even to L2.  If he was to be used if Collins got injured he’d probably be out of his depth, get a load of stick and set his career back 5 years.  I’m all for letting him go out and play mens football lower down and learn his trade rather than throw him in at the deep end, even if we don’t sign a striker.

A L2 loan wouldn't have given us the possibility of recalling, despite that being his current ability level

2 minutes ago, Big Trav said:

Surely if no striker is coming in then Dajaune Brown has to return, just to provide an option at least 

3 weeks to go before we can recall him. Washington and Waghorn should be back by then  so I can't see Warne recalling him and actually playing him

5 minutes ago, simmoram1995 said:

This could be the end of Warne if this backfires I could see us playing NML up front if Collins is injured or shove Bradley up top 🤦‍♂️😂

Collins also has to avoid picking up 2 yellows over the next 8 games or he's suspended for 2 games...