TuffLuff

I’ll say this here as don’t think it’ll go over well on the main parts of the forum at the minute (and tbh I can’t be bothered with ‘debates’ atm. But there’s something to be said about the club being patient and seeing what the lay of the land will be in the next few seasons. That’s not to say ‘don’t get in the champ’ but I do think we are at the very start of a huge rebuild and our fans do need to realise where we are and it’s going to take time.

After years of them claiming we stole all their chants, they might be needing ‘they docked us 21 points’ quite soon…

After years of them claiming we stole all their chants, they might be needing ‘they docked us 21 points’ quite soon…

Was saying to my Wednesday supporting mate at the weekend, that there are going through a lot of parallels with what we went through, once Morris had run out of road.  
Anyway, got to send him this today. They are currently in ‘form a protest group which confuses most of the fan base’ stage
Soon to be followed by a secondary protest group because some fans don’t agree with the aims of the first protest group. Then the first group vote out the spokesperson for their group because they disagree with something they’ve said, which then sparks a third group to appear who are once again unclear in their aims.

They sound a bit like the People's Front of Judea - or is that the Judean People's Front?......
 

Was saying to my Wednesday supporting mate at the weekend, that there are going through a lot of parallels with what we went through, once Morris had run out of road.  
Anyway, got to send him this today. They are currently in ‘form a protest group which confuses most of the fan base’ stage
Soon to be followed by a secondary protest group because some fans don’t agree with the aims of the first protest group. Then the first group vote out the spokesperson for their group because they disagree with something they’ve said, which then sparks a third group to appear who are once again unclear in their aims.

I think it's an active choice that every attending supporter makes on the day, whether to get behind the team and encourage them, or whether to look for something to complain and shout abuse about before we've even kicked a ball.
I have had my say about the football on here, but at games I keep supporting, keep clapping, keep hoping the next attack for us will produce a goal.
We have heard from the Club, like we asked, now we can choose to get behind the team for a few weeks and see whether it makes any difference. 
If someone can't,  then I am guessing that Eaton Ram is saying it's better to stay away. 
It's like people who say the atmosphere will be toxic now, as if that is a separate entity outside of their control. It isn't.  It's us. 
I'm not bothered about those people sitting complaining from the comfort of their armchairs week after week, the players can't hear them. 

Sure this won’t be popular but I think Warne should have until Xmas to have us in the top six. I would call myself pro-stability rather than pro-Warne and I understand why so many of the fans have turned - we haven’t improved as quickly as any of us would want and we’re currently not good enough going forward.
But I’d say he deserves longer to fix that than it looks like he’s going to get.
My concern is that the fanbase seems to think that a change of manager could get us into the top two and speed up our promotion, I think that’s wrong - the top two is gone already imo and having another new manager coming in isn’t going to speed up our timeline. 
How many times this past decade have we sacked a manager because we thought it would get us promotion quicker? Look where we are now. I think that the fanbases expectations have been damaged by that and we’re now turning on managers quicker than we should.
If people are being real with themselves, how many of you are Warne out because you’re panicking that we’ll be in League One again next season? It’s short-termism. As much as Ipswich spent a few seasons more than they’d like in League One, they get promoted the right way and are reaping the benefits now.
Sacking another manager early into the season isn’t doing things the right way. Said this before but the day after the Villa playoff final, we had a squad made up of seven managers different signings. Whereas in 13/14, McClaren inherited a unified, hungry dressing room all signed by one manager.
Chopping and changing is what got us into this mess, we’ve just let a manager shape our squad and now we’re going to get rid of him before the halfway point of the season?
I see a lot of people talking about the top two - I thought that was unlikely after the first five games, it was an overhauled squad which was still adding players who were going to be in the starting XI (Fornah, John-Jules, Nyambe). It didn’t look cohesive and I didn’t think we’d have a good enough start to put together an automatics push. So far, that looks like an accurate assessment. 
Part of why I’ve had patience with Warne is that I think we were closer to starting from scratch than it looked on paper. I agree that the 5 at the back fiasco isn’t a good look but I don’t think the transition from this season to last season is as straightforward as some people make it out. That is partly Warne’s fault as he tried to change our system but I didn’t see many people on here this summer disagreeing with him switching to the back five/signing Sonny Bradley - it you were one of the five or so posters on here doing that, don’t quote this letting me know; I don’t give a toss
However, I think there is now a legitimate argument as to whether he sees out the season as I don’t think we’ve improved as quickly as anyone would like after that slow start. I would have said he has until the end of the season a month back so I’ve now sped that up to an assessment at Xmas
I’m personally disappointed with how quickly the fans have turned on Warne. Warne certainly deserves until Xmas to try to turn this around but the fans may drive him out; I don’t think that’s the sign of a healthy club, that decision should lie with Clowes and he shouldn’t be pressured into creating more turbulence at an already very turbulent club to satisfy the mob.
I will always be anti-booing the team/manager, our role at games should be as supporters and I think booing/chanting at Warne is more akin to acting like a customer.
And when people’s complaint is the football isn’t entertaining enough, you are definitely a customer rather than a supporter.
I don’t buy into this idea that we need to see entertaining football but what we do need is effective football.
My concern with Warne is I don’t think he knows how to get this team scoring 2+ goals per game regularly - as far as I’m concerned, the football can be as ugly as a sunburnt Susan Boyle as long as we’re scoring goals and winning games.

I’m still pro-Warne, as much as I was at the start of the season. I think the players as a collective have a lot to answer for, and I don’t mean it as they aren’t trying or good enough, I just find them characterless and especially the ones Rosenior signed up. I think there’s a group of players there who have obviously not been resigned by other clubs because they were decent squad players but don’t consistently put in enough good dominating performances over a season. Ultimately I would put the likes of Bird and Sibley in a similar boat. Like last season, how much did we rely on McGoldricks goals? Yes, Warne has had a couple of transfer windows but they are players who are also taking up his budget and are difficult to shift. I said a few weeks ago but I’m reminded of the early Clough years in that he has players he needs shift but can’t until contracts run out, I still think that’s the case and if Clowes gets rid of Warne now I doubt we’d see a quick fix (and even if there was I’m not convinced we are in a position to compete in the championship just yet).
Thats not to say Warne hasn’t made mistakes, he had and continues to do so. The biggest was making Hourihane captain and the process he proudly told everyone about. I don’t think it helped the mentality and gave the players too much power in that moment when he’d presumably lined up the captaincy for Sonny Bradley. When I saw the video of Hourihane with the fans, I get the impression he’s I’m essentially saying ‘it’s not our fault’ as players and it didn’t fill me with confidence as a captain that the players fully behind what Warne is trying to do. It’s a lot to take from that video after a loss, but I’m just going on his body language and what he’s saying. I don’t think it’s a good look
I think he needed to bring Bradley into his 11 before now, which is a difficult decision due to the form of the defence but I think he needed his players with a fresh mentality in his 11. I don’t think he’s put enough of his stamp onto the squad just yet. Some of that has been because of the injuries to Ward and Elder as well, but I think the big thing is he’s missing is his leader on the pitch. Do we have anyone who’s really pointing fingers, getting others riled up or wanting to win? I don’t see it at the minute and I haven’t for a good while. 
It’s ultimately the mentality of the players to me, and Warne has to take the brunt of that. Tomorrow is huge for Warne’s future and I’ll be really interested to see what team he puts out, but I hope he is willing to have a bit of a reset rather than this wishy washy approach of having his style of play but having a formation that is trying to keep everyone happy. I think it’s time for Warne to set out a side and formation that he wants to work and bypass the players it doesn’t suit

Good post

I’m still pro-Warne, as much as I was at the start of the season. I think the players as a collective have a lot to answer for, and I don’t mean it as they aren’t trying or good enough, I just find them characterless and especially the ones Rosenior signed up. I think there’s a group of players there who have obviously not been resigned by other clubs because they were decent squad players but don’t consistently put in enough good dominating performances over a season. Ultimately I would put the likes of Bird and Sibley in a similar boat. Like last season, how much did we rely on McGoldricks goals? Yes, Warne has had a couple of transfer windows but they are players who are also taking up his budget and are difficult to shift. I said a few weeks ago but I’m reminded of the early Clough years in that he has players he needs shift but can’t until contracts run out, I still think that’s the case and if Clowes gets rid of Warne now I doubt we’d see a quick fix (and even if there was I’m not convinced we are in a position to compete in the championship just yet).
Thats not to say Warne hasn’t made mistakes, he had and continues to do so. The biggest was making Hourihane captain and the process he proudly told everyone about. I don’t think it helped the mentality and gave the players too much power in that moment when he’d presumably lined up the captaincy for Sonny Bradley. When I saw the video of Hourihane with the fans, I get the impression he’s I’m essentially saying ‘it’s not our fault’ as players and it didn’t fill me with confidence as a captain that the players fully behind what Warne is trying to do. It’s a lot to take from that video after a loss, but I’m just going on his body language and what he’s saying. I don’t think it’s a good look
I think he needed to bring Bradley into his 11 before now, which is a difficult decision due to the form of the defence but I think he needed his players with a fresh mentality in his 11. I don’t think he’s put enough of his stamp onto the squad just yet. Some of that has been because of the injuries to Ward and Elder as well, but I think the big thing is he’s missing is his leader on the pitch. Do we have anyone who’s really pointing fingers, getting others riled up or wanting to win? I don’t see it at the minute and I haven’t for a good while. 
It’s ultimately the mentality of the players to me, and Warne has to take the brunt of that. Tomorrow is huge for Warne’s future and I’ll be really interested to see what team he puts out, but I hope he is willing to have a bit of a reset rather than this wishy washy approach of having his style of play but having a formation that is trying to keep everyone happy. I think it’s time for Warne to set out a side and formation that he wants to work and bypass the players it doesn’t suit

Hourihane was asked about tactics at the fans forum and said it was up to the players to adapt to what the manager wants. In saying today, we are trying, he's giving the same message.
I think it is his way of saying we're doing what we're told to do. My take on that (both times) is that it's not what he - and probably several others - wants to do. 
I'm maybe just thinking that because it's not what I want them to do, either.

I guess so! Although judging by Twitter it looks like Amazon may have buggered up the pre order and people are still waiting for books.
Im intrigued by it still but may wait a couple of weeks and see what the reviews say.
I think the preview probably shows the issue with doing something so quickly after that time. Yes you want people to speak whilst it’s fresh but no one there has anything to gain by being quoted in it and I imagine some who we’d want to hear something from are under NDA’s

Warne raised a good point pre game about not throwing youth players in when they aren’t ready and actually you can argue that it’s not had that many benefits over the last few seasons. Did it benefit Bird, Sibley, Whittaker or Knight to be seen as first team regulars before they were 21? Other clubs with top academies dont scatter their side with young players, they might have one or two who can learn around good players, so it’s more about waiting until a player is ready.
Also maybe consider that the ones who would have come through now (Ebiowei, Kellyman, Gordon plus!) we’re are sold off and the U21’s had a dreadful time of it last season. Are we better to let the 17/18 years olds try and have a more normal season, we are probably better letting players like Robinson be around a more settled environment rather than pushing them into the first team environment right now.
Sorry to jump on a bit of a random comment, we all want academy players going into the first team but I think there’s a lot more to consider than just throwing young players in for the sake of it.

Warne raised a good point pre game about not throwing youth players in when they aren’t ready and actually you can argue that it’s not had that many benefits over the last few seasons. Did it benefit Bird, Sibley, Whittaker or Knight to be seen as first team regulars before they were 21? Other clubs with top academies dont scatter their side with young players, they might have one or two who can learn around good players, so it’s more about waiting until a player is ready.
Also maybe consider that the ones who would have come through now (Ebiowei, Kellyman, Gordon plus!) we’re are sold off and the U21’s had a dreadful time of it last season. Are we better to let the 17/18 years olds try and have a more normal season, we are probably better letting players like Robinson be around a more settled environment rather than pushing them into the first team environment right now.
Sorry to jump on a bit of a random comment, we all want academy players going into the first team but I think there’s a lot more to consider than just throwing young players in for the sake of it.

Warne raised a good point pre game about not throwing youth players in when they aren’t ready and actually you can argue that it’s not had that many benefits over the last few seasons. Did it benefit Bird, Sibley, Whittaker or Knight to be seen as first team regulars before they were 21? Other clubs with top academies dont scatter their side with young players, they might have one or two who can learn around good players, so it’s more about waiting until a player is ready.
Also maybe consider that the ones who would have come through now (Ebiowei, Kellyman, Gordon plus!) we’re are sold off and the U21’s had a dreadful time of it last season. Are we better to let the 17/18 years olds try and have a more normal season, we are probably better letting players like Robinson be around a more settled environment rather than pushing them into the first team environment right now.
Sorry to jump on a bit of a random comment, we all want academy players going into the first team but I think there’s a lot more to consider than just throwing young players in for the sake of it.

Warne raised a good point pre game about not throwing youth players in when they aren’t ready and actually you can argue that it’s not had that many benefits over the last few seasons. Did it benefit Bird, Sibley, Whittaker or Knight to be seen as first team regulars before they were 21? Other clubs with top academies dont scatter their side with young players, they might have one or two who can learn around good players, so it’s more about waiting until a player is ready.
Also maybe consider that the ones who would have come through now (Ebiowei, Kellyman, Gordon plus!) we’re are sold off and the U21’s had a dreadful time of it last season. Are we better to let the 17/18 years olds try and have a more normal season, we are probably better letting players like Robinson be around a more settled environment rather than pushing them into the first team environment right now.
Sorry to jump on a bit of a random comment, we all want academy players going into the first team but I think there’s a lot more to consider than just throwing young players in for the sake of it.

Warne raised a good point pre game about not throwing youth players in when they aren’t ready and actually you can argue that it’s not had that many benefits over the last few seasons. Did it benefit Bird, Sibley, Whittaker or Knight to be seen as first team regulars before they were 21? Other clubs with top academies dont scatter their side with young players, they might have one or two who can learn around good players, so it’s more about waiting until a player is ready.
Also maybe consider that the ones who would have come through now (Ebiowei, Kellyman, Gordon plus!) we’re are sold off and the U21’s had a dreadful time of it last season. Are we better to let the 17/18 years olds try and have a more normal season, we are probably better letting players like Robinson be around a more settled environment rather than pushing them into the first team environment right now.
Sorry to jump on a bit of a random comment, we all want academy players going into the first team but I think there’s a lot more to consider than just throwing young players in for the sake of it.

How do you define recover?
Best way to look at it I think is through the Clough years post the prem season. It probably took 3 years for Clough to bring in what you would consider his real ‘first choice’ targets and shape the side how he wanted to see it. After that it still took another 2 to shape those players in a settled system and could have taken another season before his sacking before we’d have seen them be a top side in the champ. 
So when you consider being on budgets and the market, Derby at the moment maybe not being a players first choice etc etc, I think you can realistically look at 5 years? For the squad to have a shape and to have a proper identity, so they are ready to challenge in the league above. 
Others things to consider is how long Ipswich were in League One, Sunderland too. Pompey and Bolton still down trying to build. The talk of it not being an easy fix isn’t just lip service, there should be nothing telling you that this was going to be a one season in league one. If we rush this then you risk doing what Sheffield Wednesday have become this season, cue a likely relegation and having to rebuild still.
Good question @Curtains, hope others put some proper consideration in to it

How do you define recover?
Best way to look at it I think is through the Clough years post the prem season. It probably took 3 years for Clough to bring in what you would consider his real ‘first choice’ targets and shape the side how he wanted to see it. After that it still took another 2 to shape those players in a settled system and could have taken another season before his sacking before we’d have seen them be a top side in the champ. 
So when you consider being on budgets and the market, Derby at the moment maybe not being a players first choice etc etc, I think you can realistically look at 5 years? For the squad to have a shape and to have a proper identity, so they are ready to challenge in the league above. 
Others things to consider is how long Ipswich were in League One, Sunderland too. Pompey and Bolton still down trying to build. The talk of it not being an easy fix isn’t just lip service, there should be nothing telling you that this was going to be a one season in league one. If we rush this then you risk doing what Sheffield Wednesday have become this season, cue a likely relegation and having to rebuild still.
Good question @Curtains, hope others put some proper consideration in to it

How do you define recover?
Best way to look at it I think is through the Clough years post the prem season. It probably took 3 years for Clough to bring in what you would consider his real ‘first choice’ targets and shape the side how he wanted to see it. After that it still took another 2 to shape those players in a settled system and could have taken another season before his sacking before we’d have seen them be a top side in the champ. 
So when you consider being on budgets and the market, Derby at the moment maybe not being a players first choice etc etc, I think you can realistically look at 5 years? For the squad to have a shape and to have a proper identity, so they are ready to challenge in the league above. 
Others things to consider is how long Ipswich were in League One, Sunderland too. Pompey and Bolton still down trying to build. The talk of it not being an easy fix isn’t just lip service, there should be nothing telling you that this was going to be a one season in league one. If we rush this then you risk doing what Sheffield Wednesday have become this season, cue a likely relegation and having to rebuild still.
Good question @Curtains, hope others put some proper consideration in to it

How do you define recover?
Best way to look at it I think is through the Clough years post the prem season. It probably took 3 years for Clough to bring in what you would consider his real ‘first choice’ targets and shape the side how he wanted to see it. After that it still took another 2 to shape those players in a settled system and could have taken another season before his sacking before we’d have seen them be a top side in the champ. 
So when you consider being on budgets and the market, Derby at the moment maybe not being a players first choice etc etc, I think you can realistically look at 5 years? For the squad to have a shape and to have a proper identity, so they are ready to challenge in the league above. 
Others things to consider is how long Ipswich were in League One, Sunderland too. Pompey and Bolton still down trying to build. The talk of it not being an easy fix isn’t just lip service, there should be nothing telling you that this was going to be a one season in league one. If we rush this then you risk doing what Sheffield Wednesday have become this season, cue a likely relegation and having to rebuild still.
Good question @Curtains, hope others put some proper consideration in to it

I can perhaps be over critical of Bird on occasion, but his ability to play one touch football improves this side no end and that was the major difference to Saturday. As @jono’s thread said the other day, pass and move!