CBX1985

Just now, GenBr said:

Yes but for the third time we have no right to play at any level. Its all well and good saying it would be farcical, but you still need one of those higher leagues to accept your application to join. If they reject your application you aren't playing in that league. We can agree we won't be playing in the football league though - that would be impossible for a phoenix club - there would be zero chance they would be accepted at that level.

Agreed, there is no rights - but practicality demands sometime.  The gate levels available would give you the capacity to go to owners of higher teams and buy them. 

6 minutes ago, GenBr said:

We're not too big to do anything. If we're liquidated we start at the bottom as a phoenix. Simple as that. However i also do not believe it will happen.

I'm sure some clubs lower down people will just be able to turn up, but you need a ticket to get in to watch teams like ilkeston town - they'll just sell the max amount of tickets - wont be a problem. For other teams somebody will have to find a solution, but we have no right to be in a higher tier just because we might have more fans attending certain games. We have to apply like everyone else and have no guarantee of being accepted.

The purchase idea would work, but I think it would be too farcical to start at the bottom.  A bit like when Australia used to play nations like American Samoa every international, and protested by stopping swapping shirts.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_31–0_American_Samoa

Lg 2 is too high, but they would give some dispensation for a proper recognised phoenix club.  Level 7 is certainly a possibility.

2 minutes ago, Flying Fokker said:

You may be right.  See what happens in the next couple of months.  Your points sort of validate my point.  You are too big a club to even talk about fans starting another one. 

I'm confident this will not happen but:   Assuming your suggestion comes to fruition, how are the grounds going to cope with the away support?   Derby to play the likes o Ilkeston or Buxton? 

Excellent point.  I saw earlier someone say about security at that level and I couldn't work the problem out - because for home games you could buy security, of course.

It would be a total farce, thinking about it.    

9 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

But that's precisely why I think they would vote to allow us into L2 - because their only consideration is for themselves and their own finances

A club with a huge following like Derby means more income for them. It's nothing to do with the name, or how big we think we are. It's bums on seats

It's just typical Derby negativity and victim complex to assume we'd get thrown into Sunday League because "everyone hates us"

Just be objective about it for a second and you'll see

 

If it was every week, yes; but a few games a season isn't enough.

If we do need to start at the bottom, the sooner we start the better.  Another option is to do a MK Dons act and take over another team.  Mickleover have a team I believe at level seven....

1 minute ago, Tyler Durden said:

I admire someone who uses the word dichotomy more than once in their post.

But you've let yourself down unfortunately by not being able to spell lobster thermidor.

I know - I'm dreadful at spelling, but it just wasn't coming up on my spellcheck.  Precision of language.  I wanted to show two false positions are almost always false.  As they are here.

4 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

You carry on keep saying they will give in the end, it's not happened up to now so can't see why it will happen any time soon. Football administration is different to other business administrations, they are a stand alone, we are part of an association whose rules we have to abide by, they can expel us from the league and it is no use saying the law of the land won't allow them.

Of course it hasn't.  And you are probably right it won't be soon.  That is, again, a conflation of differing issues.  

The fact they haven't given in until the end means just that - the end. You don't hold out to the last, but give in a month before!  

I will give you the decency of not trying to misrepresent you.  I would appreciate the same courtesy.  I made a statement on the affects of law.  Nothing else.  The law allows any company to be liquidated. The law allows - and encourages - deals to be made in any civil dispute.

17 minutes ago, Yani P said:

Qualification should be a pizza cake..

We won't be topping the table, so a good base from Papa Johns will help.  

9 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Do what now?  As it stands, the EFL will enforce their insolvency policy (and we pay football creditors), or we'll be liquidated (and the EFL pool account will pay them). So either way the clubs get their money. It's only if the EFL start changing rules that clubs might get interested. Likewise, Bolton, Wigan and any other clubs in admin recently might have complaints to make.

If we're talking about Mike Ashley £28m type bids, then no creditor outside of MSD, Quantuma and some of the football creditors are getting anything anyway, so the length of time is moot.

Exactly.  

This idea of dichotomy is very good for trying to drive a hard bargain but becomes dreadful when you actually negotiate.  It is also a total nonsense that doesn't pass mustard for a second once you think about it.  

Life is never go to bed or go for a run; cheese on toast or lobster thermadore; Chariots of Fire or Minions.  It involves change and movement.  When it comes down to it, Creditors will not want the dichotomy - zero pounds or surrender.  But, they will want a good deal.  You can then offer new points to the bargain to sweeten it.  All sides will want this - literally everyone.  

At the moment, the admins want what they want (on behalf of Creditors).  But if no one is offering, their bargaining position is zero.  So movement will need to happen to prevent the dichotomy mentioned above.  At that point, and ONLY at that point, new ideas will come to the fore.      

Just now, curb said:

At some point the EFL will take away the league membership, the only thing at the moment that is making a sale viable.

Once they decide to do that, liquidation is inevitable.

It won’t be decided by the creditors or the administrators, it will be decided by the EFL.

 Agreed.  But that would be the point we would have a put up or shut up moment.  We still haven't had one; not even close.  Whilst both sides can procrastinate, they will.  

Just now, RoyMac5 said:

Didn't work when EFL Insolvency Policy was questioned.

Depends on what the judgement actually was and the question being resolved.  The intricate detail of it - our issue might be very different.  I haven't read any so cannot comment.

Should a Superior Court judge accept part of it, then that would be Common Law

1 minute ago, atherstoneram said:

And you were the one that posted they could come to an arrangement were they could pay over 10 years to creditors, are you sure.

Why have creditors not accepted that deal already then?

Different thing.  I said all possibilities were on the table.  That is a possible deal.  There are a million others.

Because that was my idea.  I'm not in the room. 

2 hours ago, Gaspode said:

Something has to be done to focus a few minds on the bigger picture here - seems some of the rich folk are still looking for a cut-price deal.....

Can it really be so hard for Q to set out the minimum amount that needs to be paid to meet each of the scenarios (2 years, 3 years, -15 points) and then set a deadline when the amount the potential buyers need to have submitted their final and best bid - whoever bids the largest amount wins. If no-one meets the lowest price (-15 points), then Q will begin liquidation proceedings. The alternative is that this farce staggers on for many more months with the occassional drip-feed of cash to pay the wages.....

Buyers don't believe it.  The administrators know the creditors want more than they are being offered.  But no one is offering.  If admin can keep this ticking along they will until no more options are available.  They will not accept a penny less.... until they do.  

Creditors get nothing in a no deal outcome. The admins work for Creditors.  The creditors are not going to want nothing on a multi million investment (HMRC might, as they care less about the money and more about what general internal policy is).  

I said numerous times last week that we will see this play out.  Admins saying "your bids are too low, up them or no deal".  The other side will continue ignoring said statement.  This will continue to play out until the day the money actually runs out.  

Admins are forced to liquidate if that is the best outcome for the Creditors.  It won't be, as they will get more in a cheap sale.  EFL is a league.  People are acting as though their "rules" are "statute".  They are not.  If Creditors agree in a deal, they will accept that deal.  

EFL Rules: Made by them; changeable by them; internal policy, not law.

Statute and Common Law: The law of the land.  Fixed, or set by legal precedent.  

On 13/06/2022 at 20:03, jimbobram said:

I was born in London, and moved to Derby. Derby made me fall in love with football

I was born and raised in far south west Wales, 75 miles away from the nearest major city, Swansea.  Being 9 when I started liking football, everyone there supported Man Utd.  Never one for following the crowd, being someone who also loves numbers (and the lottery having only recently started), I used a bingo machine and put ninety teams with numbers on them.  I picked out Derby totally at random and supported them every since - it coincided nicely with the beginning of the Jim Smith era.  

I had absolutely no connections with this City, and hadn't even visited there until I was 18 and able to go by myself.  

I moved away to work in London, and started going up here and there to games.  As my career progressed, I could afford to move out of the smoke.  With more money, and easy access to the M1, I got myself a season ticket and commuted to most home games and it gets me away from the wife for a few hours ? ).  I literally drive to the ground and home again - have never really actually explored the City itself.

I now have an array of teams nearby to support. Not sure I could, though.  If the worst happens, I think I will go with the phoenix.  When they rise to Lg1, like AFC Wimbledon did, I would regret not having supported them through it all.  

This afternoon proves to me what would be lost.  I'm bored bored bored.

2 minutes ago, Coconut's Beard said:

 

Say though they imposed a deadline and all of the 'interested parties' said hey wait, that's not enough time for us to finalise our plans, and they all pull out? What then? 

Everyone in the process is surely clued in on the real timeline anyway? 

They must all know themselves based on their own communications with the EFL at what point the plug is pulled. 

As ever the onus is on the bidders to actually bid; if their hand isn't already forced by the consequence of inaction then there need to be serious questions asked of them too. 

They won't until the very last minute.  They will pontificate.  He who speaks first loses.  So all sides keep quiet.  

Unless someone is very naive (CK, etc) they know this truism.  Fine to let people know your plans.  Very different to finalise them.

1 hour ago, uttoxram75 said:

Drugs or wumming?

Keeping an eye on you ?

@uttoxram75Wumming?  That is a new one on me.  Drugs, only tea and paracetamol... a pint on weekends.

I would have got more "Billy Davies" in if I could.  It was a play on him referring to himself in the third person.  He used to see how many he could get away with in any interview with the press.  

Please see example: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3466475/Billy-Davies-whispering-campaign-against-reason-m-not-job.html

1 hour ago, Brailsford Ram said:

I don’t think so. For all his faults Carl Jackson looks far too prim and proper to want to follow Billy Davies ?

I can see Billy Davies coming back as manage..  Billy Davies has been out of work for a long time.  Billy Davies has always done a good job at getting sides promoted, whilst Billy Davies would be a lot cheaper.  Billy Davies' "evening proclivities" should not distract from what Billy Davies can do as a manager.

41 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

"Former Wolves owner Steve Morgan and ex-Derby chairman Andy Appleby are considering a joint bid to buy the Rams out of administration and save them from liquidation.

...Morgan and Appleby have been put together by ex-Wolves chief executive Jez Moxey. He has been involved in American Appleby’s bid to buy Derby and knows Morgan well from their days working together at Molineux.

...It is hoped that a deal to take Derby out of administration will be struck before Thursday, when the 2022-23 EFL fixtures are released, although EFL sources say no deadline has been set and that interested parties will be given time to conclude a deal beyond that date."

That seemed a very rational choice.  Both appear to be a similar type of person. 

I view both options - Ashley and this pair - as excellent in their own ways, but would be very different.  The former would be very austere around the edges, but he is going to want success at the same time so primed investment after a consolidation period; I think Ashley, for his faults, likes being a football club owner and would care about the club, should we not threaten him every time he comes to PP like at SJP.  I think the latter would be a longer consolidation period with a focus on very long term organic development.  

Just now, Crewton said:

Hmmm.... what d'ye reckon? ?

What is it about the millionaire accountant, Carl Jackson, Natalie Jackson loves?

12 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

The premiums would be huge

5% of value, would be my assumption - and roughly that for salary.

7 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I am reading the administrators update.

The amount at the time of entering administration was £8.3m and no payments were made between entering administration and April 22.

Guess it is possible that it was paid directly by the EFL.

What surprises me is that they didn't take out greater insurance against such an expensive purchase.  If I was to buy a player for that amount, I would want to insure against salary and transfer fee should they fall injured.  I'm not sure they bothered with either.

15 hours ago, Red Ram said:

Exactly my concern Stiv. Just don't see how it can happen in time now. You couldn't buy a house in these timescales let alone a football club, especially one where the ownership structure of the various constituent parts is so complex and fragmented. Obviously very much hope we're both wrong but am fearing the worst more now than at any other point in this debacle.

 

 

You can sell a house in a day.  You can sell anything you like pretty much as quickly as you want. 

But with speed comes a price reduction.  

3 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

He'll get jack s*** if he does.  Last chance saloon.

Eloquently put.

There is no money in a football stadium that cannot be used for football.  What would go there?  - a hotel?  Derby has all the chains.  Restaurants?  Plenty of those around, and less footfall due to no football.  Business premises - lots of that around, but it isn't the most expensive of real estate anyway, I believe.  Residential?  Yes, but not worth worth £20m +.  And then you need to get the Council to approve demolition.  

DCFC is realistically the only owner/user.  MM has to sell or he has to lease.  He wants to get as much of the debt on the Stadium off his back.  The Stadium is where you can make swinging reductions in how much you pay.

2 hours ago, FlyBritishMidland said:

Thanks for posting @RoyMac5.  What’s striking about this is that Appleby and Co totally rebuilt us with careful management over 6 years.  After throwing everything at trying to stay in the PL they became more prudent, trimmed the wage bill and looked for bargains in the transfer market.  Then, bringing in Mac who let the shackles off we got to Wembley in 2014.  In the same period from 2015 MM blew a load of cash when it needed evolution not revolution and we ended up in administration.

Personally, I’d take 6 years of a careful and steady rebuild.  Play the long game.

Totally agree.  However, the thing with football, and you see it with this site is the illogical hope and yearning for more than is reasonable.  Looking oblivion in the face, the question is promotional pushes and avoiding 15 point penalties.

Fans love those who spend too much until it runs out.  Fans are less keep on the prudent types. And football is rarely a profitable business, so those who run it don't want to buy mid table mediocrity. They want to spend spend spend, and few want that spending on their account - they can borrow the future for that.

I hope the bottom paragraph is the next six years. 

1 hour ago, Wolfie said:

Hmmm, Appleby for £50m+ or Ashley for £28m (and -15 pts).

It's a toughie....

Agreed on paper, but devil is in detail.  i.e. if Ashley offers to cover Stadium debt - which would allow him to repay at leisure.  I'm sure they'd be happy with that as good interest from a credible payer.  

20 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Nobody knows if Clowes owns the Stadium as  most likely it would have been dependent on CK doing his final 

deal as well .

I think in all probability MM still owns the Stadium 

No way would anyone agree to buy a white elephant like that without a guaranteed tenant.  They have only one realistic user.  What you call a strong negotiating position.  

I would let MM keep it and hammer him on rent negotiation.