Paris Olympics

[Archied]

6 hours ago, Jubbs said:

Like I've already said, she is a female who was born female. 

Then why the controversy? Was this person born with female or male genitalia?
if the controversy/ danger is only female born with other biological issues that make her much stronger than other females without these issues and it makes the strength / force issues dangerous in contact sports then there can perhaps be some kind of system / catagory worked out to balance things in the way weight categories are used 

[Archied]

53 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

I literally get all my information from this forum. I don’t have an X account. So I’m relying on everyone here to be reliable. Now you’re telling me your sources are X. Now I don’t know what to think!

But no one ever said he was English, he wouldn’t claim to be English, so why would anyone expect him to support England. He’s British and Scottish. That doesn’t mean he’s obliged to be a fan of England. 

My sources arnt x 🙈

[therealhantsram]

Anyone know why GB kit is all black this year?

Whenever I watch I find myself scanning the lineup for the competitors in white to try spot the Brits. Why the change?

[Jubbs]

8 minutes ago, Archied said:

if the controversy/ danger is only female born with other biological issues that make her much stronger than other females

She has literally an 8% KO ratio ffs, she's not "much stronger" than anyone.

It looks as if Carini has a habit of giving up when times get tough, here she is giving up again 2 years ago.

 

[Norman]

13 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

She has literally an 8% KO ratio ffs, she's not "much stronger" than anyone.

It looks as if Carini has a habit of giving up when times get tough, here she is giving up again 2 years ago.

 

I have no opinion on this or know the finer details.....but you can't use a KO percentage in amateur boxing, with limited rounds and wearing helmets, as an argument for strength. 

[Archied]

27 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

She has literally an 8% KO ratio ffs, she's not "much stronger" than anyone.

It looks as if Carini has a habit of giving up when times get tough, here she is giving up again 2 years ago.

 

There is obviously an issue here as one body has banned them from competing and another says it’s fine , im just trying to get my head around the facts of the issue and can’t seem to find any clarity, I honestly don’t think it’s helpful to just say this person only has such and such knock out percentage in amateur boxing so they can’t be that much stronger ect , they may be poor technically but have an unfair strength/ build advantage that totaly skews the pitch , I honestly don’t know from what info is available 🤷🏻‍♂️

Can anybody help to explain , were these two boxers born with female genitalia or a mix of both ? 

Edited August 2 by Archied

[Alph]

What a distraction when you're at the Olympics. The whole world discussing your gender. Pretty brutal. 

The French swimmers have some mad banter. "la Baguette" they call Leon Marchand. 

I feel like it's at the level of a drunk England fan staggering around Paris at 4am during 1998. 

As impressive as he is, it's never nice to see the French win. I assume they feel the same about us. 

The Olympics is great though innit

[RoyMac5]

Allez les Bleus.

Edited August 2 by RoyMac5

[Alph]

10 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Allez les Bleus.

Er yeah definitely 

[JfR]

14 minutes ago, Archied said:

There is obviously an issue here as one body has banned them from competing and another says it’s fine , im just trying to get my head around the facts of the issue and can’t seem to find any clarity, I honestly don’t think it’s helpful to just say this person only has such and such knock out percentage in amateur boxing so they can’t be that much stronger ect , they may be poor technically but have an unfair strength/ build advantage that totaly skews the pitch , I honestly don’t know from what info is available 🤷🏻‍♂️

Can anybody help to explain , were these two boxers born with female genitalia or a mix of both ? 

There's not much clarity because a lot of the information is confidential medical information that isn't public, and much of the information is from the IBA who are so corrupt that the IOC completely stopped working with them a few years back (which they've never ever done with any other sports governing body).

What is known as fact is that both the Algerian boxer Imane Khelif and the Taiwanese boxer Lin Yu-ting were recognised as female at birth and have lived their lives as women/girls. This would strongly suggest that they have external female phenotypical features, e.g. genitalia. They are and have always been legally female, so this isn't a transgender issue, they identify with the gender they were assigned at birth.

Both boxers were found by the IBA to have failed sex tests at other championships. While it hasn't actually been explicitly said by the IBA (at least not in official communications) that the issue is that the boxers have XY ("male") chromosome makeup, that's what the general assumption is. Assuming this is the case, I think this doctor gives a very good summary as to what this would actually mean:

I'll try to summarise this quickly if anyone doesn't want to watch the whole thing (though I do highly recommend it; he's done a better job of explaining it for the layman than anyone else I've seen).

Essentially, in the early stages of fetal development, everyone follows a "female" development up to a certain point. At this point, genes in the Y chromosome in males will "kick in", so XY individuals usually develop absolutely male characteristics and XX individuals usually develop absolutely female characteristics. In some cases, however, the genes in the Y chromosomes don't "kick in" like they're supposed to. In this case, the individual may be born with outward characteristics (phenotype) that we identify as being more characteristically female, i.e. the genitalia (both internal and external) and secondary sexual characteristics (hair growth, body shape, etc.). This is what is suggested (but not outright stated) to have happened here, that both of the boxers have XY chromosome makeups, but have developed a phenotype that we would identify as female. But it's hard to talk about it in any greater detail than that, because individual cases can be very different.

Now, I do think that there's absolutely a place for discussion about where the limits for sex/gender should be set in sports. Part of the issue is that, while it's true that the vast majority of people fall neat into ideas of "male" and "female" sex, sex evidently isn't always an absolute binary in practice, and can seem like more of a spectrum when talking about intersex people. There isn't an easy answer to these questions because the system of sex segregation was created without really acknowledging this.

Personally, I just wish that this conversation could be had without resorting to the cruel and degrading rhetoric about two women who frankly don't deserve it.

[Jubbs]

23 minutes ago, Archied said:

Can anybody help to explain , were these two boxers born with female genitalia

Yes, they both have female genitalia. 

[RoyMac5]

10 minutes ago, JfR said:

There's not much clarity because a lot of the information is confidential medical information that isn't public, and much of the information is from the IBA who are so corrupt that the IOC completely stopped working with them a few years back (which they've never ever done with any other sports governing body).

What is known as fact is that both the Algerian boxer Imane Khelif and the Taiwanese boxer Lin Yu-ting were recognised as female at birth and have lived their lives as women/girls. This would strongly suggest that they have external female phenotypical features, e.g. genitalia. They are and have always been legally female, so this isn't a transgender issue, they identify with the gender they were assigned at birth.

Both boxers were found by the IBA to have failed sex tests at other championships. While it hasn't actually been explicitly said by the IBA (at least not in official communications) that the issue is that the boxers have XY ("male") chromosome makeup, that's what the general assumption is. Assuming this is the case, I think this doctor gives a very good summary as to what this would actually mean:

I'll try to summarise this quickly if anyone doesn't want to watch the whole thing (though I do highly recommend it; he's done a better job of explaining it for the layman than anyone else I've seen).

Essentially, in the early stages of fetal development, everyone follows a "female" development up to a certain point. At this point, genes in the Y chromosome in males will "kick in", so XY individuals usually develop absolutely male characteristics and XX individuals usually develop absolutely female characteristics. In some cases, however, the genes in the Y chromosomes don't "kick in" like they're supposed to. In this case, the individual may be born with outward characteristics (phenotype) that we identify as being more characteristically female, i.e. the genitalia (both internal and external) and secondary sexual characteristics (hair growth, body shape, etc.). This is what is suggested (but not outright stated) to have happened here, that both of the boxers have XY chromosome makeups, but have developed a phenotype that we would identify as female. But it's hard to talk about it in any greater detail than that, because individual cases can be very different.

Now, I do think that there's absolutely a place for discussion about where the limits for sex/gender should be set in sports. Part of the issue is that, while it's true that the vast majority of people fall neat into ideas of "male" and "female" sex, sex evidently isn't always an absolute binary in practice, and can seem like more of a spectrum when talking about intersex people. There isn't an easy answer to these questions because the system of sex segregation was created without really acknowledging this.

Personally, I just wish that this conversation could be had without resorting to the cruel and degrading rhetoric about two women who frankly don't deserve it.

And here is the NHS definition of DSD

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

[Jubbs]

Edited August 2 by Jubbs

[ariotofmyown]

Looked on here to see what everyone thought of the great action so far. Should have guessed.

I'm off to throw rocks at a...erm...abortion clinic??

[Stive Pesley]

23 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Looked on here to see what everyone thought of the great action so far. Should have guessed.

I'm off to throw rocks at a...erm...abortion clinic??

It's looking like "blokes obsessing about female boxers genitalia" is going to get entered into the 2028 Olympics as an official sport at this rate

[Archied]

1 hour ago, JfR said:

There's not much clarity because a lot of the information is confidential medical information that isn't public, and much of the information is from the IBA who are so corrupt that the IOC completely stopped working with them a few years back (which they've never ever done with any other sports governing body).

What is known as fact is that both the Algerian boxer Imane Khelif and the Taiwanese boxer Lin Yu-ting were recognised as female at birth and have lived their lives as women/girls. This would strongly suggest that they have external female phenotypical features, e.g. genitalia. They are and have always been legally female, so this isn't a transgender issue, they identify with the gender they were assigned at birth.

Both boxers were found by the IBA to have failed sex tests at other championships. While it hasn't actually been explicitly said by the IBA (at least not in official communications) that the issue is that the boxers have XY ("male") chromosome makeup, that's what the general assumption is. Assuming this is the case, I think this doctor gives a very good summary as to what this would actually mean:

I'll try to summarise this quickly if anyone doesn't want to watch the whole thing (though I do highly recommend it; he's done a better job of explaining it for the layman than anyone else I've seen).

Essentially, in the early stages of fetal development, everyone follows a "female" development up to a certain point. At this point, genes in the Y chromosome in males will "kick in", so XY individuals usually develop absolutely male characteristics and XX individuals usually develop absolutely female characteristics. In some cases, however, the genes in the Y chromosomes don't "kick in" like they're supposed to. In this case, the individual may be born with outward characteristics (phenotype) that we identify as being more characteristically female, i.e. the genitalia (both internal and external) and secondary sexual characteristics (hair growth, body shape, etc.). This is what is suggested (but not outright stated) to have happened here, that both of the boxers have XY chromosome makeups, but have developed a phenotype that we would identify as female. But it's hard to talk about it in any greater detail than that, because individual cases can be very different.

Now, I do think that there's absolutely a place for discussion about where the limits for sex/gender should be set in sports. Part of the issue is that, while it's true that the vast majority of people fall neat into ideas of "male" and "female" sex, sex evidently isn't always an absolute binary in practice, and can seem like more of a spectrum when talking about intersex people. There isn't an easy answer to these questions because the system of sex segregation was created without really acknowledging this.

Personally, I just wish that this conversation could be had without resorting to the cruel and degrading rhetoric about two women who frankly don't deserve it.

Thank you , the above is a very good clarification and really helpful 👍👍

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Jubbs said:

Yes, they both have female genitalia. 

The actual question was born with as I’m sure you know but not to worry as a poster has come on and shone some proper light for those of us trying to understand the situation which may be quite complex , which begs the question of why a poster on here can manage to clear some of the fog that somehow the people running things can’t 

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Jubbs said:

Thanks , that’s a far better explanation of the situation 👍

[Archied]

49 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Looked on here to see what everyone thought of the great action so far. Should have guessed.

I'm off to throw rocks at a...erm...abortion clinic??

Are you aiming that at any posters in particular because I’ve not really seen any over the top posts but i have seen people trying to figure out what’s actually going on , even asking if anyone can shed light on what seems to be a garbled mess of what the issue / problem coming from the people who should be giving clarity for the sake of the two boxers involved , not just the wider public ,,

how do you get away with this im off to throw at a erm abortion clinic stuff ? Mods it’s beyond me, But at least there are some posters who can give helpful information that’s asked for rather than silly constant insults 🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited August 2 by Archied

[Alph]

43 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

It's looking like "blokes obsessing about female boxers genitalia" is going to get entered into the 2028 Olympics as an official sport at this rate

Elle Brooke started it. 

Don't Google.