How impressive is PW as a coach?

[IlsonDerby]

8 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

No you're not.

You have zero evidence to back up your wage bill claim. 

If you do please post it up and I will gladly apologise.

I think based on the wage bill from last season and the incoming players in the summer (where I can’t see anything other than the wage bill increasing) it’s not a massive jump to assume it’s top 1 or 2. It might not be a known fact but to suggest it isn’t likely is at odds with common sense. 

[Crewton]

2 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Some people keep banging on about our restrictions being self imposed which, of course, they were but do you not think the club had some kind of steer from the EFL or at the very least had an idea of what might be acceptable? I don’t think the club were completely free to set whatever level of restrictions they wanted knowing they’d be approved regardless.

It's absolute tosh. We were required to agree to a two year monitored business plan by the EFL with parameters each season with which we had to comply. If we'd refused to comply with these restrictions, we'd have been sanctioned once again. Every signing had to be approved by the EFL. Both Birmingham and Reading have had points deductions applied for breaching agreed business plans.

 

[Archied]

As far as I can see the manager had a certain amount to spend , he chose to spend it on wages rather than fees in the main , we obviously had a decent budget for the level , seems to me warne used it well to get the job done and let’s not pretend ,, getting back to the championship as fast as possible was really important, the man got the job done whilst breaking records and giving us days like Carlisle at home and some fantastic away days for the faithful and despite the claims of the style of football driving fans away no matter what division we ended up in it seems st sales are very healthy and there’s a feel good factor around the club ,,,, we all know toppish end budget garuantee s nothing unless you have a manager and coaches capable of using it properly,

there’s no one I would pick above warne to have a crack at the championship next season as derby manager 

Edited May 6 by Archied

[sage]

54 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Some people keep banging on about our restrictions being self imposed which, of course, they were but do you not think the club had some kind of steer from the EFL or at the very least had an idea of what might be acceptable? I don’t think the club were completely free to set whatever level of restrictions they wanted knowing they’d be approved regardless.

Obviously. I acknowledged that. However we could have paid small fees but it would impacted on our wage budget so we offset them. 

The plan we put together was in the words of DC 'very competitive'. 

It wasn't shoestring which is all I've said. Let's not pretend we were poverty stricken compared to other League One clubs. 

Edited May 6 by sage

[G STAR RAM]

48 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

I think based on the wage bill from last season and the incoming players in the summer (where I can’t see anything other than the wage bill increasing) it’s not a massive jump to assume it’s top 1 or 2. It might not be a known fact but to suggest it isn’t likely is at odds with common sense. 

Maybe he should state that then rather than telling other posters that he is correcting their inaccuracies?

When he is armed with everyone's accounts from this year he can state with confidence that we had the highest wage bill, until that point it is guesswork and condescending to other posters accusing of them of posting falsehoods.

[Ram a lamb a ding dong]

On 04/05/2024 at 13:28, Walkley Ram said:

Babe wake up, new Paul Warne thread just dropped.

Cheeky 

[trappatoni]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

Some people keep banging on about our restrictions being self imposed which, of course, they were but do you not think the club had some kind of steer from the EFL or at the very least had an idea of what might be acceptable? I don’t think the club were completely free to set whatever level of restrictions they wanted knowing they’d be approved regardless.

I suspect the money David Clowes was willing to spend was within the limits the EFL were willing to let us spend.   None of us actually know and if he goes in a Mel Morris style spending  spree this Summer I guess I'm wrong.  

[Nuwtfly]

22 minutes ago, sage said:

Obviously. I acknowledged that. However we could have paid small fees but it would impacted on our wage budget so we offset them. 

The plan we put together was in the words of DC 'very competitive'. 

It wasn't shoestring which is all I've said. Let's not pretend we were poverty stricken compared to other League One clubs. 

Nobody is saying we were poverty stricken. And before you accuse me of doing this by using the word "shoestring", let me just clarify that I used that word simply to describe the small amount of money we had to work with and the balancing act the club had to go through to sign a player: CBT being the most obvious example of this. Fornah and Kane Wilson two others.

Our budget, even under restrictions, was almost certainly competitive when compared with the division as a whole. I'm sure Cheltenham Town and Bristol Rovers would struggle to match us ever with the EFL looming over us. 

But we certainly weren't in a position to splash the cash either, were we?

Other teams were managing to beat us to the signing of players because they could pay fees that we couldn't. Warne even acknowledged this when speaking about a striker that had joined a rival (believe it was Lang going to Portsmouth?).

You're trying to make out that we had money to spend and just chose not to. I don't think that's true or even fair. 

The wider point of this whole discussion though is around whether Warne and the club did an impressive job recruiting this season with those restrictions in place. I think they did. 

You don't seem to want to engage in that discussion, but instead you would rather play the role of an English teacher marking an exam paper, dishing out big red crosses for the use of terminology you find "erroneous" 

I've agreed with many of your points over the season on Warne and his style of play, but it's starting to feel now like you are just entrenched in a position of constant criticism of him that isn't particularly fair.

[sage]

3 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Nobody is saying we were poverty stricken. And before you accuse me of doing this by using the word "shoestring", let me just clarify that I used that word simply to describe the small amount of money we had to work with and the balancing act the club had to go through to sign a player: CBT being the most obvious example of this. Fornah and Kane Wilson two others.

Our budget, even under restrictions, was almost certainly competitive when compared with the division as a whole. I'm sure Cheltenham Town and Bristol Rovers would struggle to match us ever with the EFL looming over us. 

But we certainly weren't in a position to splash the cash either, were we?

Other teams were managing to beat us to the signing of players because they could pay fees that we couldn't. Warne even acknowledged this when speaking about a striker that had joined a rival (believe it was Lang going to Portsmouth?).

You're trying to make out that we had money to spend and just chose not to. I don't think that's true or even fair. 

The wider point of this whole discussion though is around whether Warne and the club did an impressive job recruiting this season with those restrictions in place. I think they did. 

You don't seem to want to engage in that discussion, but instead you would rather play the role of an English teacher marking an exam paper, dishing out big red crosses for the use of terminology you find "erroneous" 

I've agreed with many of your points over the season on Warne and his style of play, but it's starting to feel now like you are just entrenched in a position of constant criticism of him that isn't particularly fair.

I did engage. I gave an appraisal of the pros and cons several posts ago. I made a point about your post then have purely responded to your posts. 

Yet I am the one 'entrenched'

Fascinating 

 

[Srg]

6 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Nobody is saying we were poverty stricken. And before you accuse me of doing this by using the word "shoestring", let me just clarify that I used that word simply to describe the small amount of money we had to work with and the balancing act the club had to go through to sign a player: CBT being the most obvious example of this. Fornah and Kane Wilson two others.

Our budget, even under restrictions, was almost certainly competitive when compared with the division as a whole. I'm sure Cheltenham Town and Bristol Rovers would struggle to match us ever with the EFL looming over us. 

But we certainly weren't in a position to splash the cash either, were we?

Other teams were managing to beat us to the signing of players because they could pay fees that we couldn't. Warne even acknowledged this when speaking about a striker that had joined a rival (believe it was Lang going to Portsmouth?).

You're trying to make out that we had money to spend and just chose not to. I don't think that's true or even fair. 

The wider point of this whole discussion though is around whether Warne and the club did an impressive job recruiting this season with those restrictions in place. I think they did. 

You don't seem to want to engage in that discussion, but instead you would rather play the role of an English teacher marking an exam paper, dishing out big red crosses for the use of terminology you find "erroneous" 

I've agreed with many of your points over the season on Warne and his style of play, but it's starting to feel now like you are just entrenched in a position of constant criticism of him that isn't particularly fair.

We clearly could have spent £750k on Aaron Collins, just like Bolton. The shoestring talk is nonsense I say!

The goalpost moving with regards to Warne's tenure is as predictable as it is boring.

[Nuwtfly]

2 minutes ago, Srg said:

We clearly could have spent £750k on Aaron Collins, just like Bolton. The shoestring talk is nonsense I say!

The goalpost moving with regards to Warne's tenure is as predictable as it is boring.

(Going to assume that this post is sarcastic as I’m sure you don’t actually think we had that money to spend on any player)

Feel like I’ve said this about ten times now but I don’t quite understand how anyone can argue that Warne isn’t impressive at this level. He’s had four promotions. He got us promoted in his first full season. Yes, the football has been less that pretty, but the job he has done is impressive.

[Nuwtfly]

7 minutes ago, sage said:

I did engage. I gave an appraisal of the pros and cons several posts ago. I made a point about your post then have purely responded to your posts. 

Yet I am the one 'entrenched'

Fascinating 

 

You are. You can’t bring yourself to praise Warne or see others do so, so you get into arguments with posters over terminology and accuse people of making erroneous factual errors, while simultaneously presenting everything you say as fact, without having any evidence

[Tamworthram]

54 minutes ago, trappatoni said:

I suspect the money David Clowes was willing to spend was within the limits the EFL were willing to let us spend.   None of us actually know and if he goes in a Mel Morris style spending  spree this Summer I guess I'm wrong.  

I think we'd all be wrong, stunned and disappointed if DC went on anything close to a Mel Morris style spending spree this summer.

The point I was trying to make is that some people keep repeating this "it was our business plan" as if to imply it's our own fault that we've been restrictions because we set the plan.

[sage]

24 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

You are. You can’t bring yourself to praise Warne or see others do so, so you get into arguments with posters over terminology and accuse people of making erroneous factual errors, while simultaneously presenting everything you say as fact, without having any evidence

Read my post. I gave praise. Stop trying to attribute opinions to me. All I did was point out 2 errors and you have posted multiple times in response.

We had the highest budget the previous year and then expanded the squad. Fact.

DC said we were 'very competitive' and 'could pay fees'. Fact. 

There is evidence. 

Where is the your evidence we were on a shoestring budget?

 

Edited May 6 by sage

[TomTom92]

Think the arguments about budgets are a bit naff. We clearly had a high wage bill in compared to 90% of the league. So should be top 6 no question.
 
But was Warne’s job harder than it should be for a club of our size? To compare it to Birmingham who will be league 1 next season. Yes his job was harder than it should be and he took on the 2/3 clubs at level footing and came out in the top 2. 
 
No restrictions this season so it’s what DC wants to spend plus the calibre of player Warne wants. At this moment in time we have no indication where we stand on both points.

Until we get a picture of how recruitment is shaping up, I think it’s fruitless discussing this season because Warne ultimately did a good job.

[Ambitious]

What we know as fact is that Derby County spent £17.2m on wages as a whole in the first season out of administration, our first in League One, which was more than Sunderland during their promotion season from League One. We also know the club didn't spend a penny on transfer fees and only committed to relatively short-term deals. The EFL restrictions imposed restricted our approach in the market but ultimately didn't stop us being competitive on wages, hence why we largely went after Championship players out of contract. I suspect that this season's overall wage bill will be over £20m as a whole - more than Ipswich's when promoted. They did spend £8m on transfer fees though.

My opinion on Warne hasn't been the greatest, I've acknowledged that he's perhaps the best tactical manager that we've had in my living memory, but as a technical coach it's just not his approach. He can take technical footballers and make them smarter, more impactful players. I don't think he can improve a player's technical ability, as long as we can nail recruitment and sign technical footballers who need help bringing on tactically then Warne can absolutely succeed at the next level. He wasn't afforded the opportunity at Rotherham, look at the accounts: he had half the budget of the second closest team and a quarter of the league average. It's hard to sign technical footballers at that sort of level, but in hindsight the recruitment was pretty good and the club made a profit out of transfers. 

The Championship with Derby is a different beast, albeit we go into it with an altered mindset after the last few years, so he won't be expected to be competing at the top end right away. Nevertheless, it's a massive rebuild and the scale of the challenge isn't lost on most of us. We are going to have to do very well not to be fighting for our lives at the bottom end of the table and will go into the season as one of the favourites for the drop.

[Nuwtfly]

8 minutes ago, sage said:

We had the highest budget the previous year and then expanded the squad. Fact.

DC said we were 'very competitive' and 'could pay fees'. Fact. 

There is evidence. 

Where is the your evidence we were on a shoestring budget?

I've described very clearly why I described our budget as shoestring in one of my previous posts to you. 

You post two "facts" there.

Where is your evidence that we had the highest budget? Highest wage bill, perhaps. But where is your evidence that we had the most amount of money to spend at the beginning of the season compared to the other teams in the division? 

You also keep quoting this David Clowes interview. He said that at the beginning of the season. How did that season actually play out? Were we very competitive in the transfer market? Did we pay fees for players? As we've already discussed, only one fee was spent on a player and that had to come in the form of a loan-to-buy to get around the aforementioned restrictions. 

I think that interview was one of Clowes' only mistakes last season. He set expectations too high. Warne even had to come out and say the opposite a week or so later if i remember rightly, causing confusion in the fanbase. 

Surely it's more fair to assess how impressive we were in the market on how we actually operated, as opposed to how our owner suggested we might at the start of the season?

[G STAR RAM]

11 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

What we know as fact is that Derby County spent £17.2m on wages as a whole in the first season out of administration, our first in League One, which was more than Sunderland during their promotion season from League One. We also know the club didn't spend a penny on transfer fees and only committed to relatively short-term deals. The EFL restrictions imposed restricted our approach in the market but ultimately didn't stop us being competitive on wages, hence why we largely went after Championship players out of contract. I suspect that this season's overall wage bill will be over £20m as a whole - more than Ipswich's when promoted. They did spend £8m on transfer fees though.

My opinion on Warne hasn't been the greatest, I've acknowledged that he's perhaps the best tactical manager that we've had in my living memory, but as a technical coach it's just not his approach. He can take technical footballers and make them smarter, more impactful players. I don't think he can improve a player's technical ability, as long as we can nail recruitment and sign technical footballers who need help bringing on tactically then Warne can absolutely succeed at the next level. He wasn't afforded the opportunity at Rotherham, look at the accounts: he had half the budget of the second closest team and a quarter of the league average. It's hard to sign technical footballers at that sort of level, but in hindsight the recruitment was pretty good and the club made a profit out of transfers. 

The Championship with Derby is a different beast, albeit we go into it with an altered mindset after the last few years, so he won't be expected to be competing at the top end right away. Nevertheless, it's a massive rebuild and the scale of the challenge isn't lost on most of us. We are going to have to do very well not to be fighting for our lives at the bottom end of the table and will go into the season as one of the favourites for the drop.

Not sure of the relevance of the total wage bill of the club to how well Warne has done?

 

[Tamworthram]

23 minutes ago, TomTom92 said:

Think the arguments about budgets are a bit naff. We clearly had a high wage bill in compared to 90% of the league. So should be top 6 no question.
 
But was Warne’s job harder than it should be for a club of our size? To compare it to Birmingham who will be league 1 next season. Yes his job was harder than it should be and he took on the 2/3 clubs at level footing and came out in the top 2. 
 
No restrictions this season so it’s what DC wants to spend plus the calibre of player Warne wants. At this moment in time we have no indication where we stand on both points.

Until we get a picture of how recruitment is shaping up, I think it’s fruitless discussing this season because Warne ultimately did a good job.

It's not though is it? 

We no doubt had a higher wage budget than most other clubs in League 1 but the wages we could offer count for nothing if trying to attract players still under contract if we couldn't pay a transfer fee.

[Ambitious]

6 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Not sure of the relevance of the total wage bill of the club to how well Warne has done?

 

Because it adds context, doesn't it? Typically the teams with the highest wage bills are better equipped for success.