Ram-Alf Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 Ever since the days of "Papa Doc" Duvalier from the mid 50s to today Haiti has been a Country that's been pretty Draconian to live in, You'd have thought after all this time...time would/could have helped but No!...it's gotten worse with successive corrupt Governments. https://news.sky.com/video/haiti-where-people-have-become-used-to-violence-and-stepping-around-the-dead-13101448 Alph, Rev, Crewton and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 If only they had oil. The U.S. would have 'sorted' this years ago. EtoileSportiveDeDerby, Alph and Ram-Alf 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaltRam Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 At what point does a people begin to take responsibility for the state of it's nation. You can't impose peace, social responsibility, law and order etc from outside, or can you? cstand, Norman and Tamworthram 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 On 25/03/2024 at 13:34, sage said: If only they had oil. The U.S. would have 'sorted' this years ago. Only if they agreed to sell it to the US using dollars as the currency. Otherwise "regime change" would have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 9 minutes ago, MaltRam said: At what point does a people begin to take responsibility for the state of it's nation. You can't impose peace, social responsibility, law and order etc from outside, or can you? The British Empire would like to differ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTSA74 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 4 hours ago, MaltRam said: At what point does a people begin to take responsibility for the state of it's nation. You can't impose peace, social responsibility, law and order etc from outside, or can you? Very difficult. I fear that the commissioners sent into N********m City Council have a thankless task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 I was surprised to read that Haiti was statistically one of the safest countries in the Caribbean to visit, as far as crime was concerned. This is apparently because they have a large, well-trained police force, thanks in large part to training by the NYPD, paid for by the US government, which was instigated about 15 years ago. Their legal system is based on the Napoleonic Code, courtesy of their history as a French colony. They've been plagued throughout their history as a sovereign state by far too many Dictators corrupting their democracy, filling their pockets and murdering opponents, but the current crisis is caused by criminal gangs, much as the recent trouble in the Pacific region of Colombia has been. Greed, as ever, is at the root of this it seems. Ram-Alf and cstand 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaLocks Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 8 hours ago, MaltRam said: At what point does a people begin to take responsibility for the state of it's nation. You can't impose peace, social responsibility, law and order etc from outside, or can you? Wht an utterly uninformed and ridiculous comment. The country is devoid of any infrastructure at all, even basic things like running water, food in supermarkets. The streets are ruled by random gangs of warlords with only criminal intent at mind. What do you expect them to do, write a letter to their MP? Maybe have a cake sale to raise funds for a new swimming pool for the kiddies? As @sage said, nobody from the outside is coming as there is no political benefit in doing so. Truly, it is a living hell - no hope to fix it yourself, no hope to get help to do so. We should collectively hang our heads in shame that the only time we care about our fellow (wo)man is when there is economic benefit to do so. Stive Pesley and Alph 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 1 hour ago, BaaLocks said: Wht an utterly uninformed and ridiculous comment. The country is devoid of any infrastructure at all, even basic things like running water, food in supermarkets. The streets are ruled by random gangs of warlords with only criminal intent at mind. What do you expect them to do, write a letter to their MP? Maybe have a cake sale to raise funds for a new swimming pool for the kiddies? As @sage said, nobody from the outside is coming as there is no political benefit in doing so. Truly, it is a living hell - no hope to fix it yourself, no hope to get help to do so. We should collectively hang our heads in shame that the only time we care about our fellow (wo)man is when there is economic benefit to do so. If anyone has responsibility there from outside, it's France. On your wider point, fixing other countries' problems hasn't gone too well for us in the recent past, so I'm not convinced there's a solution that could be imposed from the outside, but others may have a better idea of such possibilities. Tamworthram, Norman and GB SPORTS 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 10 hours ago, uttoxram75 said: The British Empire would like to differ. Every empire that has ever existed would like to differ. Why single out the British empire? cstand 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 On 25/03/2024 at 13:34, sage said: If only they had oil. The U.S. would have 'sorted' this years ago. Shhhhhh! Don't tell them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 16 minutes ago, Crewton said: Shhhhhh! Don't tell them! Halliburton will be onto it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted March 27 Author Share Posted March 27 52 minutes ago, Crewton said: If anyone has responsibility there from outside, it's France. Vietnam 😡 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaLocks Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, Crewton said: If anyone has responsibility there from outside, it's France. On your wider point, fixing other countries' problems hasn't gone too well for us in the recent past, so I'm not convinced there's a solution that could be imposed from the outside, but others may have a better idea of such possibilities. Reader warning @Crewton - I'm not ranting at you with what is below, just in general. Oh I'd agree with that point - if anyone needs convincing watch 'Once Upon A Time In Iraq' to see how it works to impose your views on others. But I'm not sure it's quite as simple as suggesting that the last colonial overlord is the one who is then tasked to lead on fixing the problem. It feels more first world / third world to me and situations like this, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen sadly just show that there is no compunction on anyone to redress the inequalities that have formed. I don't think anyone suggests we want to live in a world where everyone is equal to one another, but the level of inequality - and the total disregard to help those who are unable to provide in return - shames us as a species. And the suggestion that because we (first world) haven't always found the formula means there is no option is not really one we should consider - long term investment, education, support and a little bit of care and empathy. Has it ever worked? Well I'd suggest large parts of Latin America, parts of South East Asia and many parts of Europe (benefitting from EU funding, Ireland for example) have seen economic development from external support. But hey, let's not worry, slob out on the sofa and in a couple of weeks there will be some 80s pop star in the ad break asking you to give what you can (sadly, without tax refunded). Every little bit helps and all that. Oh, and we are helping some countries who need help. Place like Ukraine, Aghanistan, Nigeria so we can do it when we want to. Edited March 27 by BaaLocks Ken Tram and TigerTedd 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 1 hour ago, Ram-Alf said: Vietnam 😡 and the Algerian War, even more brutal and costly in terms of human lives. 1954 - 1962 was a bloody decade for the French Empire. cstand and Ram-Alf 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 10 minutes ago, BaaLocks said: Reader warning @Crewton - I'm not ranting at you with what is below, just in general. Oh I'd agree with that point - if anyone needs convincing watch 'Once Upon A Time In Iraq' to see how it works to impose your views on others. But I'm not sure it's quite as simple as suggesting that the last colonial overlord is the one who is then tasked to lead on fixing the problem. It feels more first world / third world to me and situations like this, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen sadly just show that there is no compunction on anyone to redress the inequalities that have formed. I don't think anyone suggests we want to live in a world where everyone is equal to one another, but the level of inequality - and the total disregard to help those who are unable to provide in return - shames us as a species. And the suggestion that because we (first world) haven't always found the formula means there is no option is not really one we should consider - long term investment, education, support and a little bit of care and empathy. Has it ever worked? Well I'd suggest large parts of Latin America, parts of South East Asia and many parts of Europe (benefitting from EU funding, Ireland for example) have seen economic development from external support. But hey, let's not worry, slob out on the sofa and in a couple of weeks there will be some 80s pop star in the ad break asking you to give what you can (sadly, without tax refunded). Every little bit helps and all that. Oh, and we are helping some countries who need help. Place like Ukraine, Aghanistan, Nigeria so we can do it when we want to. Noted. I only mentioned France because whenever trouble occurs in a remote part of the former British Empire, you'll read and hear commentators talk about "Britain's colonial responsibilities", which is fine, but which can equally be applied to other former colonial powers like France. They also support the governments in Africa in particular with French troops, but often remove that support when sentiment or politics at home demands it - this is partly why the Wagner Group, and now it's Kremlin backed replacement, have had a free-hand to cause mayhem in a number of volatile regions of Africa in recent years. (link included for context https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-68322230 ) Your final point is of course correct, but has the government of Haiti asked for help from Britain like the ones you list have? Honest question because I don't know if the UK has been approached. BaaLocks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaLocks Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 45 minutes ago, Crewton said: Noted. I only mentioned France because whenever trouble occurs in a remote part of the former British Empire, you'll read and hear commentators talk about "Britain's colonial responsibilities", which is fine, but which can equally be applied to other former colonial powers like France. They also support the governments in Africa in particular with French troops, but often remove that support when sentiment or politics at home demands it - this is partly why the Wagner Group, and now it's Kremlin backed replacement, have had a free-hand to cause mayhem in a number of volatile regions of Africa in recent years. (link included for context https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-68322230 ) Your final point is of course correct, but has the government of Haiti asked for help from Britain like the ones you list have? Honest question because I don't know if the UK has been approached. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-63181481 Problem today is that they don't even have a PM to make the request. Half a million firearms estimated to have been smuggled in though. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-68668460 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 28 minutes ago, BaaLocks said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-63181481 Problem today is that they don't even have a PM to make the request. Half a million firearms estimated to have been smuggled in though. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-68668460 Yeah, I just heard a piece on R4W@1 - very troubling situation. Who'd fancy sending their troops in to sort that out? The UN doesn't seem to be doing anything other than providing humanitarian aid and support. Edited March 27 by Crewton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerTedd Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Sounds like a job for the expendables. Or the avengers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 During covid lockdown I watched a YouTube video about Haiti and was really shocked at the deprivation the people suffered in this country. Even more shocking was the MSM ignorance. Anyway bizarrely about the same time this thread was started I watch a fantastic YouTube video about Haiti which explained everything that has gone wrong with the country over the last few hundred years. Do not just look at the video read the comment section very informative from many different people. Twice as many African slaves were taken to Haiti than the USA. 70% of all the trees in Haiti have gone it will end up being wasteland. Its an earthquake and Hurricane disaster area just waiting to happen so no foreign investors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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