Palestine

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

13 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Just so long as they don't come to my house and try to engage me with their indoctrination mantra.

I wouldn't mind Britt Ekland circa 1973 coming to indoctrinate me at the front door to be honest.  You can have Christopher Lee

[Highgate]

3 hours ago, jono said:

Exactly ! Which is why I rail against this revisionist history business when we are asked to apologise for the empire. Yes terrible things happened, it needs to be acknowledged, and yes we need to learn, do better on our watch, but take the hindsight critical eye always from it. It is history. No one alive today is to “blame” .. Consider Zimbabwe post empire, consider what African nations under their own recognisance are doing with China ? Consider India has a semblance of democracy because foundations were laid by the empire .. oh yes I won’t deny the advantageous terms the empire drew for itself, but lambasting it in the light of the times, past and present is fundamentally wrong. We just have to learn from it and do better. That is the obligation, not ritual humility of a nation whose current peoples took no part in it and gained no benefit from it. 

I can readily agree with some of that, but disagree with other aspects.  I totally agree that nobody today should feel personally guilty for the wrongs committed by their nation in the past.  That would thoroughly unfair and unnecessary.  I agree that it's something that needs to be acknowledged and learned from as you say.  But I don't agree that we need to remove the 'critical' eye from imperialism, in fact I think we should, to twist your words somewhat, lambast it as fundamentally wrong. That is lambasting the practice of conquest and empire building, and again leaving the current descendants of the imperialists blameless. 

Empires often destroy the existing hierarchy in the conquered country, rule as they please, and then withdraw for whatever reason, leaving a vacuum. What happens in such situations? Often the result is a very nasty civil war, which can very plausibly be blamed on the Empire, who had presumably removed the original rulers and therefore caused the dangerous power vacuum when they left. Or, as is often the case, the relevant Empire be it British or French or whatever, has simply created a country with traditionally antagonistic ethnicities within entirely new borders, again sowing the seeds for further war. 

Yes, the indigenous populations of wherever are well capable of fighting their own wars with their neighbours or with themselves, nobody is saying that there was a utopia anywhere, but I can't really see anyway reason to withhold criticism for some of the most extensive examples of exploitation the world has ever seen.  It's ok to look back and say that those systems were brutal and unjust, rather than just say, 'well ok...that happened'. 

 

[Highgate]

2 hours ago, The Last Post said:

How far back in time are we allowed to go concerning the exploitation of peoples, The Roman invasion of our land who they called Britain and the north Caledonia, Taking it's people and it's recourses, Or the Moors maybe who pillaged and took white slaves to north Africa, Should we seek reparations or just forget about it at it was a looooong time ago 😁 

We can study back as far as we want and sources allow. Reparations for any group based on historical grievances is hugely problematic and probably totally unworkable for all sorts of reasons.  

Maybe the people with the best case for reparations were the Jews themselves after WWII. All the European countries who persecuted them could have paid into a fund and with the money they could have bought land for themselves, somewhere safe from all the inexplicable hatreds that they traditionally faced.  Maybe in hindsight, Palestine wasn't the best spot to escape to given that it was already well populated by Palestinians who were quite attached to their homeland.  

Maybe Iceland would have been a better spot....?  I'm watching Trapped at the moment, and there is practically nobody there by the looks of things! 😄 Apologies @ramit

[ramit]

14 hours ago, Highgate said:

We can study back as far as we want and sources allow. Reparations for any group based on historical grievances is hugely problematic and probably totally unworkable for all sorts of reasons.  

Maybe the people with the best case for reparations were the Jews themselves after WWII. All the European countries who persecuted them could have paid into a fund and with the money they could have bought land for themselves, somewhere safe from all the inexplicable hatreds that they traditionally faced.  Maybe in hindsight, Palestine wasn't the best spot to escape to given that it was already well populated by Palestinians who were quite attached to their homeland.  

Maybe Iceland would have been a better spot....?  I'm watching Trapped at the moment, and there is practically nobody there by the looks of things! 😄 Apologies @ramit

Wouldn't work, we have a low tolerance for religious types, as we are Christian by name only.  I wish there were fewer here than are now, we have had a massive influx of immigrants, now standing at 17% and rising, not counting many of the foreign workers.  Also, whaling is fine, wailing is not.😉

[jono]

10 hours ago, The Last Post said:

How far back in time are we allowed to go concerning the exploitation of peoples, The Roman invasion of our land who they called Britain and the north Caledonia, Taking it's people and it's recourses, Or the Moors maybe who pillaged and took white slaves to north Africa, Should we seek reparations or just forget about it at it was a looooong time ago 😁 

How much Silver is there in Denmark, stolen from Geordie Churches eh ? And yes the Romans .. they built roads and beauty spas but slaughtered all those druids while they were at it. it’s also about time Nottingham apologised to Derby and gave up those European cups. 

[jono]

8 hours ago, Highgate said:

I can readily agree with some of that, but disagree with other aspects.  I totally agree that nobody today should feel personally guilty for the wrongs committed by their nation in the past.  That would thoroughly unfair and unnecessary.  I agree that it's something that needs to be acknowledged and learned from as you say.  But I don't agree that we need to remove the 'critical' eye from imperialism, in fact I think we should, to twist your words somewhat, lambast it as fundamentally wrong. That is lambasting the practice of conquest and empire building, and again leaving the current descendants of the imperialists blameless. 

Empires often destroy the existing hierarchy in the conquered country, rule as they please, and then withdraw for whatever reason, leaving a vacuum. What happens in such situations? Often the result is a very nasty civil war, which can very plausibly be blamed on the Empire, who had presumably removed the original rulers and therefore caused the dangerous power vacuum when they left. Or, as is often the case, the relevant Empire be it British or French or whatever, has simply created a country with traditionally antagonistic ethnicities within entirely new borders, again sowing the seeds for further war. 

Yes, the indigenous populations of wherever are well capable of fighting their own wars with their neighbours or with themselves, nobody is saying that there was a utopia anywhere, but I can't really see anyway reason to withhold criticism for some of the most extensive examples of exploitation the world has ever seen.  It's ok to look back and say that those systems were brutal and unjust, rather than just say, 'well ok...that happened'. 

 

Indeed, and I don’t disagree at all, but the level of scrutiny in some circles over the British Empire is extreme and never given the perspective that there have been empires throughout history, and in all corners of the world who have been just as brutal and just as pillaging. Further, that the British Empire did at least attempt a rule of law and built things for the general good be it a railway, a sewage system or schools. It also lead the world in abolition and outlawing brutal local religious practices. 

[Archied]

15 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

I think that paragraph neatly sums up how people get sucked into conspiracy theories.

You are believing in something utterly mindblowing and think there is actual evidence that decidedly points to it! You can't mix up beliefs and evidence.

Why not start from something far less outlandish. Israeli took their eye off the ball from a security perspective because they were busy dealing with loads of internal strife caused by a useless, populist government. Populists cannot govern, they can only campaign. Simple slogans do not solve complex problems.

They also stupidly allowed Hamas to become stronger, possibly to keep moderate Palestinians out of power. 

These conditions clearly were suitable to allow Hamas to carry out their deadly attacks.

The issue now is the disaster unfolding in Gaza. Conspiracy theories are probably designed to make people look elsewhere!

Conspiracy theories ? Same as woke , far right , denier , ect ect ect , words just thrown out as a cover all to slur ,,, do we really believe it’s beyond belief that rich and powerful people don’t conspire to achieve they’re aims ? The attack on Israel citizens and the deaths of Palestinians both before and after clearly shows those types of peoples propensity to inhuman sociopathy too🤷🏻‍♂️,

now that does not mean I believe or go along with the stuff in this thread that’s being labelled conspiracy theory but sadly experience has taught me that bugger all is beyond belief in the lengths that many so called humans are prepared to go to .

now calling it out in terms of there’s no evidence of it is one thing whilst dismissing it on the grounds of naw ,people just wouldn’t do stuff like that is another 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Archied

[ramit]

 

[Ram-Alf]

9 hours ago, Highgate said:

We can study back as far as we want and sources allow. Reparations for any group based on historical grievances is hugely problematic and probably totally unworkable for all sorts of reasons.  

Maybe the people with the best case for reparations were the Jews themselves after WWII. All the European countries who persecuted them could have paid into a fund and with the money they could have bought land for themselves, somewhere safe from all the inexplicable hatreds that they traditionally faced.  Maybe in hindsight, Palestine wasn't the best spot to escape to given that it was already well populated by Palestinians who were quite attached to their homeland.  

Maybe Iceland would have been a better spot....?  I'm watching Trapped at the moment, and there is practically nobody there by the looks of things! 😄 Apologies @ramit

My post was sort of tongue in cheek with a little bit of serious connotation thrown in, Back in days of yore stealing land, Raping and pillaging, Slaughtering people and taking of slaves was a common occurrence, Was it down to education/necessity or greed, Before the Romans turned up we the natives would do the above to each other, We weren't Britons then just a mish mash of different tribes.

The same can be said for other lands/peoples, If anything the Romans/Normans taught us one thing...there's riches out there to be had, The Spanish employed a tactic of burn/slaughter and we followed suit, History is over flowing with Countries occupying other lands.

Sorry to go off topic, But what Israel are doing is that 2000 years of history hasn't taught them anything other than...do to them as they would do unto you...only worse 😒  

[Alph]

There's a lot of effort to make Pro Palestinians protests look like they're coming to get you!! 

One weekend, I'm not sure how many tens of thousands marched but there were a handful of offences and two or three of those were by people opposing protests. 

Apparently there was an article saying thousands of football fans are going to protect the Cenotaph? I've not seen the article but I'd be interested to know how it works

Was the news source lucky enough to be included in the conversation and planning between rival fans? Where did this take place? Is there a hidden part of this forum where some of the Derby lads are chatting with Forest and Leicester fans? 

Just curious like. I'm not saying everything is being done to discourage protests with vague threats/incitement and it's being suggested that the salt of the earth types are saving the day from the "Hate March". 

It must be hard to accept that only a tiny minute percentage of these anti-British Hamas supporters are causing any trouble. Hopefully the protests erupt in violence this weekend, eh? Fingers crossed Suella

[Ram-Alf]

24 minutes ago, Alpha said:

There's a lot of effort to make Pro Palestinians protests look like they're coming to get you!! 

One weekend, I'm not sure how many tens of thousands marched but there were a handful of offences and two or three of those were by people opposing protests. 

Apparently there was an article saying thousands of football fans are going to protect the Cenotaph? I've not seen the article but I'd be interested to know how it works

Was the news source lucky enough to be included in the conversation and planning between rival fans? Where did this take place? Is there a hidden part of this forum where some of the Derby lads are chatting with Forest and Leicester fans? 

 

It's as easy as ABC, During the BLM marches, Statues were targeted from our imperialistic history, Hague, Churchill even the Boudica statue, These were covered/protected, There was around 100+ males protecting certain sites, I'm guessing "football lads" who saw protecting what they believed to be "British History" and should be left well alone, Remember the statue that was dumped into a Bristol harbour?

Social media is the driving force for any protest, Social media is a driving force for any gathering, It's amazing what can be done with a mobile phone with an internet connection 👍, I ran the DLF forum years ago before I closed it down, I could get in touch with people the other side of the world with a press of a key.

I was at the last anti Brexit march in London when we played Charlton, We should have gone to the game but stayed on the lash instead, We stayed in a pub around Leicester Square, We ventured out for a bite to eat, At the protest was a multitude of people who had something to say or a placard to display, One man had a placard saying "we're doomed as aliens are landing" or summat like that, It gives people a voice for one reason or another.

The Press are hyping up trouble on Saturday November 11th, It will be like a tinder box according to them, They'll be opposing factions with differing causes, There will be people bent on violence not just in the UK but around Europe too.  

[Mostyn6]

Tommy Robinson has spoken.

[Ram-Alf]

26 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

Tommy Robinson has spoken.

Not quite fella, But if it makes you feel at ease with that post...good on ya.

Enjoy your day 👏

[Mostyn6]

1 hour ago, The Last Post said:

Not quite fella, But if it makes you feel at ease with that post...good on ya.

Enjoy your day 👏

He actually has spoken. It's part of the story about trying cancel the Palestine peaceful protest. He's one saying that the ex-soldiers and the football fans will be involved to prove Britain isn't broken. I'm paraphrasing as it was about 5 hours ago I read it.

[kevinhectoring]

22 hours ago, ramit said:

I understand that it's hard to accept that a government would sacrifice it's own people in the hundreds to achieve political ends, an excuse to justify the mass killing and invasion we see today, but this is what I firmly believe to be true and the evidence does decidedly point to it. 

The Economist has said that Netenyahu has  for years tolerated Hamas because it allows him to refuse peace talks. That’s credible enough and has come from several sources. 
 

But your suggestion that there was a cunning plan to allow Hamas to inflict such horror on 7/10 is not credible.  Not least because that would have required senior IDF officers to have participated in the conspiracy. No way 

[Alph]

2 hours ago, The Last Post said:

It's as easy as ABC, During the BLM marches, Statues were targeted from our imperialistic history, Hague, Churchill even the Boudica statue, These were covered/protected, There was around 100+ males protecting certain sites, I'm guessing "football lads" who saw protecting what they believed to be "British History" and should be left well alone, Remember the statue that was dumped into a Bristol harbour?

Social media is the driving force for any protest, Social media is a driving force for any gathering, It's amazing what can be done with a mobile phone with an internet connection 👍, I ran the DLF forum years ago before I closed it down, I could get in touch with people the other side of the world with a press of a key.

I was at the last anti Brexit march in London when we played Charlton, We should have gone to the game but stayed on the lash instead, We stayed in a pub around Leicester Square, We ventured out for a bite to eat, At the protest was a multitude of people who had something to say or a placard to display, One man had a placard saying "we're doomed as aliens are landing" or summat like that, It gives people a voice for one reason or another.

The Press are hyping up trouble on Saturday November 11th, It will be like a tinder box according to them, They'll be opposing factions with differing causes, There will be people bent on violence not just in the UK but around Europe too.  

It's been far too peaceful considering the numbers and it makes it hard for them to be "Hamas supporters"

I remember the BLM vandalism. As a history geek the whole tearing down statues seemed stupid to me. 

Like, you pulled down a statue of a man of the times who used slavery to build x and x in Bristol. But he still did it. You've not erased the history. X was still built and funded based on slavery. Shouldn't we give context rather than destroy? Add to our culture instead of deny it? I dunno, I remember that was a controversial topic. 

Another funny thing is apparently in video games there's something about not showing the swastika. That made me giggle. We don't want Nazis being offensive. 

But plenty of messages are going around asking protesters to respect the laws and customs of the countries they're in. Don't play into the hands of people like Braverman. I know though that there will be idiots and racists that see anything like this as a chance to spread their hatred. 

GB News is funny. I visited my uncle last night and he always has it on. It's like a cliché. Hate March! Immigrants!  Free housing for immigrants! NHS crisis due to migration! 2m rapists cross the border every day! 

Bloomin' heck. No wonder my Uncle is a miserable cnut who doesn't go out. He thinks there a Romanian gypsy waiting to kill him and sell his organs.

Cheerful stuff!

[Ram-Alf]

28 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

The Economist has said that Netenyahu has  for years tolerated Hamas because it allows him to refuse peace talks. That’s credible enough and has come from several sources. 
 

But your suggestion that there was a cunning plan to allow Hamas to inflict such horror on 7/10 is not credible.  Not least because that would have required senior IDF officers to have participated in the conspiracy. No way 

I don't want to continue the "conspiracy theory" but I'm going too, Where is your evidence that "no senior IDF officers" were not involved, There's video comments by ex IDF forces that are not going as far to say...it's an inside job, But Like me...want to know how the hell on earth did Israel step off the gas when it comes to "security intelligence" this is one if not the most "intelligence focussed" country's on earth.

During the Falklands War Hague the then Defence Secretary in the USA gave the UK evidence/intelligence of Argentine troop/arms movement by Satellite, Satellites can now pick up a boil on an ants bum, Did both country's fall asleep...or is there darker forces at play.

From one who believes Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't alone in the assassination of JFK, Altho he did kill officer Tippit...I believe 😬    

[Mostyn6]

49 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

But your suggestion that there was a cunning plan to allow Hamas to inflict such horror on 7/10 is not credible.  Not least because that would have required senior IDF officers to have participated in the conspiracy. No way 

You can believe what you like, but the technology available to Israel is superior to almost all around the world. If you think that they can know where all the Hamas commanders are hiding, yet didn't see this attack coming, and didn't react for hours, and didn't have anyone stationed on those fences (which they man excessively to shoot at kids throwing stones), then I question your mind. Once you realise that doesn't stand to logic, you will then start asking the relevant questions. Hamas actually serve a purpose for Israel more than they they serve the people of Palestine.

[Ram-Alf]

11 minutes ago, Alpha said:

It's been far too peaceful considering the numbers and it makes it hard for them to be "Hamas supporters"

I remember the BLM vandalism. As a history geek the whole tearing down statues seemed stupid to me. 

Like, you pulled down a statue of a man of the times who used slavery to build x and x in Bristol. But he still did it. You've not erased the history. X was still built and funded based on slavery. Shouldn't we give context rather than destroy? Add to our culture instead of deny it? I dunno, I remember that was a controversial topic. 

Another funny thing is apparently in video games there's something about not showing the swastika. That made me giggle. We don't want Nazis being offensive. 

But plenty of messages are going around asking protesters to respect the laws and customs of the countries they're in. Don't play into the hands of people like Braverman. I know though that there will be idiots and racists that see anything like this as a chance to spread their hatred. 

GB News is funny. I visited my uncle last night and he always has it on. It's like a cliché. Hate March! Immigrants!  Free housing for immigrants! NHS crisis due to migration! 2m rapists cross the border every day! 

Bloomin' heck. No wonder my Uncle is a miserable cnut who doesn't go out. He thinks there a Romanian gypsy waiting to kill him and sell his organs.

Cheerful stuff!

Cracking post Alpha...your Uncles a great fella 😁

GB news is the stuff of nightmares, I remember when the news reader or whatever went on one knee, Christ on a bike he was levelled 😉, All those celebs who were pro/anti Brexit screaming at us,  Brian Cox the actor who's a rabid Scottish nationalist got hammered on Question Time for being against Brexit but wanting Scottish Independence...you can't make this stuff up...well you can...it's call the media  

 

[Highgate]

7 hours ago, jono said:

Indeed, and I don’t disagree at all, but the level of scrutiny in some circles over the British Empire is extreme and never given the perspective that there have been empires throughout history, and in all corners of the world who have been just as brutal and just as pillaging. Further, that the British Empire did at least attempt a rule of law and built things for the general good be it a railway, a sewage system or schools. It also lead the world in abolition and outlawing brutal local religious practices. 

Of that there is no doubt at all.  

The rest is a bit more dubious in my view.  For what was the rule of law instigated, for the good of the conquered or to make them easier to rule? The Indian railways are often held up as a benefit to the benighted Indians, as if unconquered nations could never build a railway. But in reality, they were payed for by Indian taxes (earning British shareholders enormous profits) and they always seemed to head towards a port, all the more convenient to extract raw materials out of India. They were never built for the Indians but rather to make India a profitable and governable colony, the fact that have inadvertently benefited Indians afterwards is a side-effect.  Yes Britain led the world in abolition, but also led the world, by volume, in slavery and bizarrely in reparations for slaveholders too. 

I think the reason why the Empire is heavily scrutinized and criticized in many quarters is, partially at least, is because by many others it is still seen as something to celebrate or be proud of, so therefore the reaction is to try to explain why those sort of feelings should be inappropriate.