Palestine

[Stive Pesley]

6 hours ago, Norman said:

That's a bit of a wild claim

I wish it were. They dress it up by calling it things like "long-termism" and "transhumanism" these days but it's all right there. But anyway - - OT for this thread. It's in the "Who Wants To Live Forever" thread if you're interested

[Archied]

On 01/12/2023 at 20:53, PistoldPete said:

The big problem is that you are saying the actions of Israel are comparable to Hamas. They are not . Nowhere near. If you cannot see that then yes you must be biased beyond belief. 

I think what he is saying ( hope I’m correct) is that if you saw the actions of Israel before the latest hamas attack you would be horrified, then just as or more horrified by that attack , its targets and brutality , then you can be just as horrified by the Israeli response in terms of innocent lives lost and suffering,

I have no bias and no answers to offer , I just find the barbarity and mindless killing heartbreaking no matter who does the killing or the dieing 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Alph]

What's the plan when everyone is in the South of the strip? Do they send them back north again? Hand out sand and cement bags? Massive take up on the construction courses at Gaza College in 2024.

[Alph]

[Alph]

Hamas militants killed I've seen figures as low as 1,000 to as high as 5,000

[PistoldPete]

On 01/12/2023 at 22:27, uttoxram75 said:

Would a Palestinian civilian see Israel's atrocities any different than an Israeli civilian sees Hamas' atrocities? Its a big statement to say the actions of Israel are not comparable to those of Hamas Pete. Just on scale alone many would think the opposite tbh.

It shouldn’t be a controversial statement .. in fact it’s one that even Alpha acknowledges. The Hamas attack was a crime of such depravity ( and with attackers glorying in the fact that they were killing Jews) that I am in doubt that it crosses the legal threshold of genocide.. of deliberate intent of killing members of an ethnic group simply because of their ethnicity. 
 

Israels response may have caused a greater loss of life, many of them civilians . But as I have said many times it is not genocide.. the legal experts state the difficulty in showing intent to kill people just  because they are Palestinians. 
 

so on the one hand you get people like Gary Lineker staying completely silent on the Hamas atrocity , but at the same time telling us all to watch a video of some academic saying Israel’s response is genocide. I cannot see that the attitude of people like Lineker is anything but prejudiced in the extreme. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by PistoldPete

[Alph]

[Alph]

7 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

it crosses the legal threshold of genocide.. of deliberate intent of killing members of an ethnic group simply because of their ethnicity. 
 

Israels response may have caused a greater loss of life, many of them civilians . But as I have said many times it is not genocide.. the legal experts state the difficulty in showing intent to kill people just  because they are Palestinians. 
 

This above image imo is genocidal talk. And there's plenty more where these come from. These aren't even the worst. Smotrich has plenty of gems and Netenyahu referenced Amalek which is bizarre 

All far more prejudice than anything I imagine Lineker saying. But I can't be sure because I don't pay any attention to him to be honest. 

As for genocide, I read this earlier https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/opinion/israel-gaza-genocide-war.html

Interesting it mentions the Rome Statute which Israel didn't sign off on. Along with America, Russia and Sudan. 

Now that article concludes that technically, no, this isn't genocide. 

If the greatest offence in all this to anybody is that it's wrongly being called a genocide when it's more just crimes against humanity, maybe a touch of ethnic cleansing, then I think they need to fix their moral compass. 

Also, I saw a comparison between the civilian death rate of this war and other horrific wars. 1% of Gaza population is dead. It isn't a comparison Israel would want to be seen but I've not actually got the data and I'm at work so not got time to search it out 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Alpha
Added last paragraph

[Comrade 86]

Grim reports continue around the barbaric actions of some if the Hamas insurgents. When I see the things they've done and the airstrikes on hapless civilians trying to escape a warzone, it's increasingly hard not think we have collectively taken leave of our senses.

It feels to me that either we make the wars in Ukraine and Gaza some sort of watershed, or we just give up hope all together and let the few ride roughshod over the many. Sadly, what I don't sense, is any real appetite for change.

[Alph]

5 hours ago, Comrade 86 said:

 

It feels to me that either we make the wars in Ukraine and Gaza some sort of watershed, or we just give up hope all together and let the few ride roughshod over the many. Sadly, what I don't sense, is any real appetite for change.

Give up hope all together. That's the utterly depressing reality 

We are so polarised. Our hate and fear is so easy to weaponize. 

What does your average Israeli Jew want? Peace, wealth and health. You're average Palestinian Muslim? Peace, wealth, health. Neither want war. Yet somehow we get the many to want to kill each other for the benefit of the few. 

Amazing really. But this conflict... Hate and loss is runs so deep that I don't think there will ever be peace. 

Israel and Palestine appeal to the worst in each other. Like this thread really. You see how it escalates. 

Pointing fingers about who's done the most wrong. Justifying violence. It just gets hold of you. 

What? Are both sides going to back track and offer a brotherly hand out. Learn that you can live side by side? No chance. The damage is irreparable 

Depressing as feck. 

[Eddie]

13 hours ago, Comrade 86 said:

Grim reports continue around the barbaric actions of some if the Hamas insurgents. When I see the things they've done and the airstrikes on hapless civilians trying to escape a warzone, it's increasingly hard not think we have collectively taken leave of our senses.

It feels to me that either we make the wars in Ukraine and Gaza some sort of watershed, or we just give up hope all together and let the few ride roughshod over the many. Sadly, what I don't sense, is any real appetite for change.

It certainly seems to be the case that a lot of people in the world are trying very hard to out-fascist each other.

[uttoxram75]

 

[Alph]

The reason being a ceasefire now would leave Hamas standing. A pathetic case. 

America sells Israel these dumb bombs and claims to care about Palestinian civilians. 

Has anyone seen the amount of explosives dumped on Gaza put into context?

And even when Palestinians die in their thousands they have to face the indignity of "they're faking it" stories. Which is ironic. When it comes to debunked claims it's actually belly laugh funny that anybody could take anything Israel say seriously. 

There's sooooo many lies that they're exposed for. Things they delete, backtrack on, call a mistake (but don't remove) etc etc. 

I'm guessing these private theatre showings for journalists don't include the footage of a Palestinian man digging his two dead little girls out of rubble? Maybe they were "dolls" too?? Suppose it's hard to get hold of some footage with all the journalists being killed. 

5,000 Hamas dead? That's Israel's numbers which we know their maths isn't always too hot. Only 30k/35k left. Assuming the half million men of fighting age fully understand why they lost their entire family and face a future living in a tent without food and water. They'll be fine with it. Israel has a right to self defence

[Alph]

14 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

 

Irony when the leader of democracy overrules the decision of the many. 

[ramit]

8 hours ago, Alpha said:

Irony when the leader of democracy overrules the decision of the many. 

They've never been the leader of democracy, it's just a sick joke they enjoy throwing out there for twisted giggles.

[ramit]

Greed, as dependable as the sun rising in the morn.  That it leaves a trail, is a bit of a nuisance though.

 

[Alph]

[Highgate]

How countries voted in the UN general assembly, on the resolution for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza.

[Alph]

Lots of talk when America will say enough is enough. Could be soon. 

Just need Israel to hurry up and level the rest of Gaza before they say "whoa guys! You need to stop. We told you no more mass destruction with the weapons we sell you". 

The whole thing is an exercise in bs anyway. There's no way Hamas will surrender or stop fighting. They'd repeat October 7th attacks again tomorrow if they could. 

Israel said from the start what they would have to do to destroy Hamas. And people chose to ignore what they were actually saying and quote the PR version. Now, if you want Hamas gone you have to stick by that. No ceasefire, no fake sympathy. To destroy the ideology you have to destroy Gaza and the spirit of every Palestinian there. Make it a wasteland nobody can operate from. Just like Israel said back in October. So enjoy the carnage. 

Good on America for sticking by it's principals. Better than pretending a Palestinian resistance was ever going to be destroyed any other way and now not having the stomach to go through with it.

Hopefully they get their fill of dead Palestinian children so that when this is the West Bank we can actually forget "we don't negotiate with terrorists" and find out what we need to do for Palestinians to reject groups like Hamas. 

[Alph]

Someone said earlier in the thread about Hamas celebrating and cheering the killing of Jews on October 7th. This is true. There was also lots of confusion and arguing between militants that has lead to speculation that Hamas didn't know about the festival in advance and that the leadership lost control of rampaging militants. 

Now we over the last few days we've seen IDF soldiers behave in a similar way. They also video their own war crimes. After someone in this thread said Hamas aren't that smart I hope we can extend this to the IDF too. Their propaganda has been awful. Someone in the thread mentioned crisis actors, another comment that hasn't aged well thanks to the terrible Israeli propaganda. 

The highlight of the week goes to the Israeli Ambassador to the UK finally telling the truth of the terrorist Likud party in English on an English Channel. So everyone who's had their fingers in their ears when Smotrich has threatened the Kingdom Of Jordan and given Palestinians 3 interesting choices, well, now you don't even need Google translate. 

I've noticed a lot less disguised Islamophobia on TV as desperate pro Israelis try to make a case. 

Now the video above shows that even the ever biased CNN can't deny these crimes against humanity. 

In this thread it's been implied that support for Palestine is a disguise for Antisemitism. People have backed Israeli lies as if the truth wasn't bad enough. People have been outraged that words like genocide and murder are attributed to Netenyahu and Co. People have said that calling out the likes of Stamer, Sunak and Braverman is adding fuel to the fire. All said by people that have barely (or not at all) acknowledged Palestinian suffering. Or given it brief "it's unfortunate" before complaining about antagonistic comments on a war that's seen tonnes of explosives randomly dropped on Gaza.  

The video above is from this war. But it might give some perspective on why members of Hamas did what they did. Why they'll do it again. It doesn't condone it. But this war is supported by the majority in Israel. And what's the death count in West Bank? The video above is also pretty tame in comparison to the Al Jazeera stuff. 

Supporting Israel in this action is being on the wrong side of history. State Terrorism. Ethnic cleansing. But don't dare accuse them of the G word. That's offensive.