Palestine

[PistoldPete]

3 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Criticise Israel. Get called Antisemetic. Standard

I stand with the Jews, Christians, Catholics, Muslims etc that oppose Israel's aggressive expansionists campaign against Semite people. Against the Arab Muslims who don't know what prejudice is. 

If it makes people feel better to call such a stance antisemetic or label us Nazis then that's fine. Absolutely fine. Because the calls won't be stifled by this scare tactic. 

There's Jewish protesters in America being verbally abused by Jews right now for their stance on Israel. 

Islamophobia increased by 600%. So?

Attacks on Muslims increase every time some lunatic twists the words of the Qur'an and carries out some horrific act of terrorism. Muslim communities have to defend themselves on quite a regular basis. 

And when a vile humans like Suella Braverman press activate on right wing mobs to come and defend our shores from these terrorists. But we must be careful not to offend her. Feck her. Racist. 

Muslim communities feel insecure as UKIP, EDL, BNP etc have their marches and campaigns. 

Commonly misrepresented in TV and Hollywood. 

I said the other day. Click on the mainstream media comments section. See the open racism. Not even disguised

Rachel Riley - 'Nobody cared about Muslims before and they only care now because they're antisemetic'.... Yes Rachel. Nobody did care before. So we've established that. Good. Now let's analyse why they care now? Is it because they're antisemetic or is it possible that Israel don't represent all Jews and the IDF are terrorists? 

.....

Anyway, I realise what I'm doing is comparing racism rather than condemning all of it. Of course there's a rise in antisemetism. There's hate in the air. Every Nazi out there will piggyback on this. 

But it's a classic defence of Israel to play this card. As if there isn't a million reasons to be against Israel's policy. 

Whenever you look at Israeli defence it's based around being the victim. Being surrounded by enemies. Being a population of people persecuted through history. Being systematically tortured and slaughtered by Hitler. At what point does this stop being context and become an excuse for their behaviour. It's a brutal question. But when? When all the Palestinians are pushed into Sinai? When 20,000 Gazans are dead? 200,000? When the West Bank is 10% smaller? 20%? When Israel borders Iran? When the tension between Iran and Saudi reaches an all time high? When the oil rich nation of Iran must beg America to take it's resources at great discount through the "peace corridor"? 

When? When does context become excuse? Never? 

Netenyahu and his mob are Zionist war criminals. As vile as Hamas. There are many Zionist lunatics in Israel. And it's these we must oppose. As we must seek to remove Hamas in a realistic way. 

If they want to hide behind antisemetism then you must accept the label and drive on. With support from the countless Jews who recognise the Apartheid regime. 

I hope I haven't offended any Jews. I don't think I've been racist here. My anger is purely at the Imperial scum who disgustingly hide behind the atrocities commited against Jewish people while they kill Palestine's future

Well you just had to double down  didn't you?  

So Braverman made some inflammatory comment calling the marches "hate marches". She was wrong to do that, although there were certainly some hateful people on those marches.   So that activates right wing mobs? Well maybe but I don't think Robinson and his mob need much excuse .

So how about inflammatory posts like yours? Multiplied millions of times over on social media? Don't you think that fuels far left and anti semitic mobs? It certainly does, and is right now , not just on Armistice Day but every frigging day since October 7.

 

Rachel Riley gets vile abuse all of the time. She knows what anti semitism is, she gets first hand experience of it all the time. Nice of you to show understanding for her about that .

You plainly don't understand anti semitism. You don't recognise it, but it's the same as any other racism. We had someone else on this forum, another serial offender criticising another poster who was having a go at Jordan Ibe over his mental health issues. Stupid to have a go at Ibe for that not his fault. But the inference was made that criticising Ibe and dele Alli might be because that person was racist. If you criticise only black people all the time, you might get that impression.. same if you spend all your time criticising Israel, ignoring far worse things done by other countries. That is what Rachel Riley is saying , and she is right. 

The only unarguable crimes have been committed by Hamas, who have deliberately targeted civilians. .to put Israel's response on a par with that is wrong both morally and factually.    

 

 

 

[Highgate]

37 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

The only unarguable crimes have been committed by Hamas,

That's absurd. The state of Israel have been committing unarguable crimes against the Palestinian people since 1948. That's not even debatable.  Hamas commit them too, no doubt, but to say it's only them...??  That's surely an example of a profound pro-Israeli bias. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Highgate

[Alph]

37 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Well you just had to double down  didn't you?  

So Braverman made some inflammatory comment calling the marches "hate marches". She was wrong to do that, although there were certainly some hateful people on those marches.   So that activates right wing mobs? Well maybe but I don't think Robinson and his mob need much excuse .

So how about inflammatory posts like yours? Multiplied millions of times over on social media? Don't you think that fuels far left and anti semitic mobs? It certainly does, and is right now , not just on Armistice Day but every frigging day since October 7.

 

Rachel Riley gets vile abuse all of the time. She knows what anti semitism is, she gets first hand experience of it all the time. Nice of you to show understanding for her about that .

You plainly don't understand anti semitism. You don't recognise it, but it's the same as any other racism. We had someone else on this forum, another serial offender criticising another poster who was having a go at Jordan Ibe over his mental health issues. Stupid to have a go at Ibe for that not his fault. But the inference was made that criticising Ibe and dele Alli might be because that person was racist. If you criticise only black people all the time, you might get that impression.. same if you spend all your time criticising Israel, ignoring far worse things done by other countries. That is what Rachel Riley is saying , and she is right. 

The only unarguable crimes have been committed by Hamas, who have deliberately targeted civilians. .to put Israel's response on a par with that is wrong both morally and factually.    

 

 

 

A few points. 

Do I think posts like mine fuel antisemetism? Yes. Because I think racists will piggyback any cause that's aimed at their target. 

9/11. Racists birthday party. But that doesn't mean everybody who supported "war on terror" was motivated by racism. 

Any pro Palestinian supporter, including Jews and Jews For Justice For Palestinians can't allow the argument against Israel to be silenced by cries of antisemetism. Just like the racists mobs that tag along must be condemned and actually irreparable harm to the cause. 

As for "if you only target Israel..." Well I criticise America all the time. ALL the time. I despise American and Russian war games. I despise American Imperialism. I was in the Ukraine thread criticising America to the very point I felt like I was defending Putin! But Russia are just the other side of the coin and the actual invasion was a indefensible. But many of Putin's claims about American Imperialism I felt were valid. 

Are you implying my passion for this conflict is motivated by a hatred of Jews? I could explain why personally I care but I don't see how it's relevant when I'm just some knobber on a football forum. 

As for Hamas are the only criminals. Absolute nonsense. Totally not true. An incredible claim

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

"Yeah Dad, it must be true because @Eddie said it"

Your lad is very astute.

[PistoldPete]

23 minutes ago, Alpha said:

A few points. 

Do I think posts like mine fuel antisemetism? Yes. Because I think racists will piggyback any cause that's aimed at their target. 

9/11. Racists birthday party. But that doesn't mean everybody who supported "war on terror" was motivated by racism. 

Any pro Palestinian supporter, including Jews and Jews For Justice For Palestinians can't allow the argument against Israel to be silenced by cries of antisemetism. Just like the racists mobs that tag along must be condemned and actually irreparable harm to the cause. 

As for "if you only target Israel..." Well I criticise America all the time. ALL the time. I despise American and Russian war games. I despise American Imperialism. I was in the Ukraine thread criticising America to the very point I felt like I was defending Putin! But Russia are just the other side of the coin and the actual invasion was a indefensible. But many of Putin's claims about American Imperialism I felt were valid. 

Are you implying my passion for this conflict is motivated by a hatred of Jews? I could explain why personally I care but I don't see how it's relevant when I'm just some knobber on a football forum. 

As for Hamas are the only criminals. Absolute nonsense. Totally not true. An incredible claim

So you think you are even handed in your criticism? So on October 7 did you start a thread about the worst anti semitic atrocity since the Holocaust. No? Strange that.   

[Comrade 86]

20 minutes ago, Alpha said:

A few points. 

Do I think posts like mine fuel antisemetism? Yes. Because I think racists will piggyback any cause that's aimed at their target. 

9/11. Racists birthday party. But that doesn't mean everybody who supported "war on terror" was motivated by racism. 

Any pro Palestinian supporter, including Jews and Jews For Justice For Palestinians can't allow the argument against Israel to be silenced by cries of antisemetism. Just like the racists mobs that tag along must be condemned and actually irreparable harm to the cause. 

As for "if you only target Israel..." Well I criticise America all the time. ALL the time. I despise American and Russian war games. I despise American Imperialism. I was in the Ukraine thread criticising America to the very point I felt like I was defending Putin! But Russia are just the other side of the coin and the actual invasion was a indefensible. But many of Putin's claims about American Imperialism I felt were valid. 

Are you implying my passion for this conflict is motivated by a hatred of Jews? I could explain why personally I care but I don't see how it's relevant when I'm just some knobber on a football forum. 

As for Hamas are the only criminals. Absolute nonsense. Totally not true. An incredible claim

Yep, probably the most bone-jarringly asinine post I've ever read, but I commend your patience in answering it. It's just one strawman after the other though, so don't expect any softening of the 'if you're not with us BS'.

[Comrade 86]

5 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

So you think you are even handed in your criticism? So on October 7 did you start a thread about the worst anti semitic atrocity since the Holocaust. No? Strange that.   

So you're calling folk racists for something they haven't actually done? 

Risible.

[Eddie]

I went to the supermarket today and didn't buy bagels, but I did buy hummus.

Must be antisemitic.

[Comrade 86]

Just now, Eddie said:

I went to the supermarket today and didn't buy bagels, but I did buy hummus.

Must be antisemitic.

I'm laughing, but that's actually the logic being applied. You couldn't make it up.

I'm ok though as I love salt beef bagels nearly as much as coffee, so me and Benny Netanyahu would get on like a house on fire. Or a city maybe.

[Ram-Alf]

13 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I went to the supermarket today and didn't buy bagels, but I did buy hummus.

Must be antisemitic.

No that's in the medical isle 😁

[Highgate]

24 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

I’m really not trying to get the thread closed down. And actually I don’t like Netanyahu or Braverman either. 
All I am saying is dial it down. 

But how can you justify making, in my opinion, the most inaccurate and biased post on the thread and then ask others to 'dial it down'? 

[Alph]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

So you think you are even handed in your criticism? So on October 7 did you start a thread about the worst anti semitic atrocity since the Holocaust. No? Strange that.   

I didn't start a thread. This was split from the Ukraine thread and my post was a reply in that thread. 

Many years ago in the building trade we had a young Palestinian lad working with us. That's when I first began to take an interest from his stories. My passion grew for it over the years. Especially at what I felt was biased media coverage. My wife works with a Palestinian who's family are in West Bank right now. And my best friend is a Muslim who I've see the racist abuse he's had. This all forms my bias and sympathy. Then it's further reinforced by what I see as an Apartheid regime illegally taking lands through violence and consistently protected by America who's interest in the Middle East is obvious. Israel are their dog. 

A couple of years back I had a Palestinian flag as my avatar. Somebody had a Israeli flag and @GboroRam removed both flags. I threw a wobbler and felt even this is a small example of the voice being supressed. Gboro explained that it's just not the trouble to forum needs. Looking back that's probably fair. 

So I've purposely never started the thread. I briefly touched on it in the Ukraine thread. 

So when October 7th happened I still didn't start a thread. But I'm not one of those racists jumping on the bandwagon. 

I don't see October as such a big event as you. And I know, that sentence in isolation might be pretty disgusting. But to me, Palestinians have been killed in thousands for years. They've faced terrorism. They've been set on fire, shot, beaten, tortured... So that Jews should be killed by Hamas was just another page in this book. More killing of innocent people by one of the vile armed groups. 

Did you think I enjoyed October 7th? That I thought it was deserved? Absolutely not. I promise. I've seen the videos. The beatings, the shoving people into buildings and tossing grenades in. The confusion because Hamas militants seemed to lose their heads when let loose. Lots of arguing amongst themselves. Lots of nasty violence. 

But, the only thing new about this was that it was happening to Jews and that it was all in one day. 

The barbarity? Not new. Never gets easy to watch but not new. So I kind of was looking at the conflict on a wider scale. Which is what many Pro Israelis are doing now while Gaza is put to the sword. I don't think that makes them all racist. 

As for the newer supporters to Palestine. I don't think they're all racists. I think the fact we can go and get news from so many different sources has made more people aware of the situation. That the Ukraine war has been massive for giving people a moral dilemma when it comes to accepting Americas narrative. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Alpha

[PistoldPete]

6 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I didn't start a thread. This was split from the Ukraine thread and my post was a reply in that thread. 

Many years ago in the building trade we had a young Palestinian lad working with us. That's when I first began to take an interest from his stories. My passion grew for it over the years. Especially at what I felt was biased media coverage. My wife works with a Palestinian who's family are in West Bank right now. And my best friend is a Muslim who I've see the racist abuse he's had. This all forms my bias and sympathy. Then it's further reinforced by what I see as an Apartheid regime illegally taking lands through violence and consistently protected by America who's interest in the Middle East is obvious. Israel are their dog. 

A couple of years back I had a Palestinian flag as my avatar. Somebody had a Israeli flag and @GboroRam removed my flag. I threw a wobbler and felt even this is a small example of the voice being supressed. Gboro explained that it's just not the trouble to forum needs. Looking back that's probably fair. 

So I've purposely never started the thread. I briefly touched on it in the Ukraine thread. 

So when October 7th happened I still didn't start a thread. But I'm not one of those racists jumping on the bandwagon. 

I don't see October as such a big event as you. And I know, that sentence in isolation might be pretty disgusting. But to me, Palestinians have been killed in thousands for years. They've faced terrorism. They've been set on fire, shot, beaten, tortured... So that Jews should be killed by Hamas was just another page in this book. More killing of innocent people by one of the vile armed groups. 

Did you think I enjoyed October 7th? That I thought it was deserved? Absolutely not. I promise. I've seen the videos. The beatings, the shoving people into buildings and tossing grenades in. The confusion because Hamas militants seemed to lose their heads when let loose. Lots of arguing amongst themselves. Lots of nasty violence. 

But, the only thing new about this was that it was happening to Jews and that it was all in one day. 

The barbarity? Not new. Never gets easy to watch but not new. So I kind of was looking at the conflict on a wider scale. Which is what many Pro Israelis are doing now while Gaza is put to the sword. I don't think that makes them all racist. 

As for the newer supporters to Palestine. I don't think they're all racists. I think the fact we can go and get news from so many different sources has made more people aware of the situation. That the Ukraine war has been massive for giving people a moral dilemma when it comes to accepting Americas narrative. 

Alpha we all want a peaceful solution and I think a two state solution where Palestinians  can live freely is exactly what we both want.  I have my own perspective which to be honest is too personal to share on a public forum.

Despite your criticism of America they have  a vital role to play in brokering a peaceful solution.  Netanyahu has to go and of course so have Hamas.

But I sincerely do not believe that such a rabid criticism of Israel is the way to bring about that peace. Or make life for Jews here in the Uk at all bearable. 

[Alph]

12 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Alpha we all want a peaceful solution and I think a two state solution where Palestinians  can live freely is exactly what we both want.  I have my own perspective which to be honest is too personal to share on a public forum.

Despite your criticism of America they have  a vital role to play in brokering a peaceful solution.  Netanyahu has to go and of course so have Hamas.

But I sincerely do not believe that such a rabid criticism of Israel is the way to bring about that peace. Or make life for Jews here in the Uk at all bearable. 

Fair enough mate. 

I genuinely hope I haven't caused offence. 

[cstand]

11 hours ago, Jubbs said:

So you think biased media is only a new thing? If anything, nowadays everyone has an wide range of access to different views and it's easier to find the full story than it ever has been. 

Mental illness has always been a thing, it's just more publicised now and easier to get help as it's not as taboo as it has been in the past. 

I never mentioned bias media it’s click bait debates the MSM use to keep the fire burning on both sides to fill their 24hr coverage.

https://mentalhealth-uk.org/blog/how-to-cope-with-news-anxiety/#:~:text=24-hour rolling news is,negatively impacts your psychological wellbeing.

There is a great deal more to mental health problems today other than suicide that’s why I never mentioned it. 
24hr social media is a real problem.

https://www.mcleanhospital.org/essential/it-or-not-social-medias-affecting-your-mental-health.

https://www.helpguide.org/articles/mental-health/social-media-and-mental-health.htm

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by cstand

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

Alpha we all want a peaceful solution and I think a two state solution where Palestinians  can live freely is exactly what we both want.  I have my own perspective which to be honest is too personal to share on a public forum.

Despite your criticism of America they have  a vital role to play in brokering a peaceful solution.  Netanyahu has to go and of course so have Hamas.

But I sincerely do not believe that such a rabid criticism of Israel is the way to bring about that peace. Or make life for Jews here in the Uk at all bearable. 

There was an interesting article written in the Grauniad which popped up on a feed a little while ago in which the author basically suggested that there are two fundamental obstacles to a two-state solution, and nothing will happen at all in that direction until both are totally removed.

The obstacles? Hamas and Netanyahu.

[Crewton]

10 hours ago, Eddie said:

There was an interesting article written in the Grauniad which popped up on a feed a little while ago in which the author basically suggested that there are two fundamental obstacles to a two-state solution, and nothing will happen at all in that direction until both are totally removed.

The obstacles? Hamas and Netanyahu.

You could make that three : Iran, or rather the current regime in Iran, who regard their proxies in the region as far too important to ever abandon. They use them to destabilise the region in the same way that the ISI in Pakistan has used the Taliban against Afghanistan and militant Islamist groups against India.

[ariotofmyown]

11 hours ago, Eddie said:

There was an interesting article written in the Grauniad which popped up on a feed a little while ago in which the author basically suggested that there are two fundamental obstacles to a two-state solution, and nothing will happen at all in that direction until both are totally removed.

The obstacles? Hamas and Netanyahu.

I think it was this one I've just read. Excellent article I thought, basically saying the Israeli government and Hamas leaders are both terrible

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/17/hamas-benjamin-netanyahu-ceasefire

[Comrade 86]

11 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

I think it was this one I've just read. Excellent article I thought, basically saying the Israeli government and Hamas leaders are both terrible

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/17/hamas-benjamin-netanyahu-ceasefire

I think everyone knows this and I think that's been the case since the initial atrocities. Sadly, some irrational folk seem to think that criticising the IDF is the same thing as supporting Hamas, a line of which I grow wearier by the day.

In today's news:

Israel told the BBC it could not confirm it struck a UN school-turned-shelter but was investigating.

BBC Verify has geolocated footage to al-Fakhoura school in Jabalia that shows many people - including women and children - with severe injuries or lying motionless on the floor in different parts of the building.

There are more than 20 such casualties visible in the footage, and around half of these are seen in one particular room on the ground floor, which also shows signs of considerable damage.

The head of the United Nations agency for Palestinian refugees (UNRWA) Philippe Lazzarini said he had seen "horrifying images and footage of scores of people killed and injured" in one of his agency's schools "sheltering thousands of displaced".

"These attacks cannot become commonplace, they must stop," he said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67462615

[uttoxram75]

15 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

I think everyone knows this and I think that's been the case since the initial atrocities. Sadly, some irrational folk seem to think that criticising the IDF is the same thing as supporting Hamas, a line of which I grow wearier by the day.

In today's news:

Israel told the BBC it could not confirm it struck a UN school-turned-shelter but was investigating.

BBC Verify has geolocated footage to al-Fakhoura school in Jabalia that shows many people - including women and children - with severe injuries or lying motionless on the floor in different parts of the building.

There are more than 20 such casualties visible in the footage, and around half of these are seen in one particular room on the ground floor, which also shows signs of considerable damage.

The head of the United Nations agency for Palestinian refugees (UNRWA) Philippe Lazzarini said he had seen "horrifying images and footage of scores of people killed and injured" in one of his agency's schools "sheltering thousands of displaced".

"These attacks cannot become commonplace, they must stop," he said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67462615

Its slaughter on an industrial scale. Civilians, kids murdered because there is gas under their land.