Warne has to get the balance right

[S8TY]

5 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

I do wonder if he just thought he could rock up, say "everyone run around a lot", and it would just work like it did at Rotherham.

This is quite disrespectful IMO .....do you honestly think thats all he said at Rotherham ? Credit where its due he got them up and had some success and I'm not saying he's right for us but I do want him to succeed but saying he just rocked up and said run around is ridiculous like saying  Pep said just said pass  it about!!!  to his  City players

[duncanjwitham]

1 minute ago, S8TY said:

This is quite disrespectful IMO .....do you honestly think thats all he said at Rotherham ? Credit where its due he got them up and had some success and I'm not saying he's right for us but I do want him to succeed but saying he just rocked up and said run around is ridiculous like saying  Pep said just said pass  it about!!!  to his  City players

Obviously I'm slightly exaggerating for emphasis, but I can also see what's happening on the pitch.  Does anyone here genuinely think that Hourihane, Bird, Smith etc can do the high intensity box-to-box running that Warne seemingly wants them to?  Is Cashin really a part-time overlapping fullback?  Is Sibley really a wingback?  Are NML and Bird really some sort of inside-forwards?  I could go on...

If his entire style is based on having players do these things, and the players we have literally aren't capable of doing them, but he sets us up to do it anyway, what's the alternative explanation?

I'm not necessarily saying that "run around a lot" is his entire style, but I'm not convinced he's ever had to deal with a squad where the majority of players literally can't do that (to the extent he wants anyway).

[Curtains]

 I do think that a lot of the aspects of play worked against Wigan .

Its just about playing in the right areas and it really is early days. 
 

I think we go again tonight and I’ll be there backing the lads. 
 

[i-Ram]

4 minutes ago, Curtains said:

 I do think that a lot of the aspects of play worked against Wigan .

Its just about playing in the right areas and it really is early days. 

I think we go again tonight and I’ll be there backing the lads. 

 

On 06/08/2023 at 10:51, Curtains said:

Early days yet but not happy with yesterday.

Are we destroying Bird and Cashin with this system 

Slow at the back and NML all over the place 

 

[RoyMac5]

7 minutes ago, Curtains said:

 I do think that a lot of the aspects of play worked against Wigan .

Its just about playing in the right areas and it really is early days. 
 

I think we go again tonight and I’ll be there backing the lads. 
 

They worked at times, but still I didn't see much total 'joined up thinking' on the pitch. To say it's early days ignores preseason and the fact that these are professional footballers. To me they still don't seem to have confidence in how they are playing.

[DCFC_Sloth]

58 minutes ago, jameso said:

I like your analysis. We live in hope that a Knight replacement is on the shopping list. I also hope I'm not mistaken in believing that Nelson is not quite as slow as the other two centre-backs! But even if that is the case, your point is valid about the risks of playing a high line - unless Wildsmith is going to play like Neuer... which brings its own potential perils.

I would say about the timing of recruiting Warne that it would perhaps have been a big ask for Clowes to have had that one up his sleeve on the eve of the season, with everything else going on at that time. Allowing Rosenior to start, with the title "interim manager", seemed like a sensible option, and gave LR a chance to stake his claim. (I'm not reopening that can of worms here though!) - I understood that Clowes approached Rotherham via the correct formal route in order to approach Warne. He couldn't have done that until he was in place, and perhaps he felt that was too much upheaval all at once, both on a practical level and in terms of the effect on his staff. Maybe it was possible and maybe a ruthless businessman would have done it (?)

Yeah, I might be being a little unfair about the timing of the appointment. Maybe it would be correct to say that given the squad we had cobbled together, that is Liam wasn’t the guy for Clowes, then someone more suited to the playing staff should have been perused. 
 

I think we have to try and get some kind of knight replacement in. We only have 3 senior CMs at the club currently and even if the plan is to play 2 of sibley, barks, NML, Waghorn, and Washington in the inside forward/10 role behind Collins, 3 CMs for the 2 spots doesn’t seem enough for the season. 

[DCFC_Sloth]

51 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

I agree with pretty much everything else in your post, but I'm not sure "dealt a dud hand" is a fair description.  He knew exactly what he was walking into here - he knew the state of the squad, the financial restrictions etc.  And likewise, we knew exactly who we were appointing - we knew the type of players he had at Rotherham, the type of football he played etc.  If he/we didn't think he could get something out of the squad he inherited (plus sensible transfers in/out), he simply shouldn't have taken/been given the job.  You can't go around giving a manager a job, with the intention that he has 2 years of free-hits to replace the entire squad, before he starts producing results.  As much as anything, if we aren't seriously challenging for promotion this season, I just don't see how he's still in the job next season.

One of my big bugbears about Warne's management is he seems to have a massive blindspot for differing types of players.  He doesn't seem to care/understand that some players can do some things and other players can't.  Players seemingly get chucked into positions at random without a thought as to whether they can actually do them or not.  Every midfielder is a box-to-box midfielder, regardless of fitness/mobility.  Every wide player is a wingback, regardless of defensive skills/crossing ability.  I do wonder if he just thought he could rock up, say "everyone run around a lot", and it would just work like it did at Rotherham.

Maybe ‘dud hand’ isn’t quite the right phrasing, but he is certainly isnt in a position to really put his stamp on the squad. Although I’m sure he knew what he was walking into, it is possible that he underestimated the difficulty of getting a team to play his way, or he knew exactly what the limitations were and felt he couldn’t turn the job down due to size of the opportunity.

My point is really that he’s not in a/put himself in a position which will allow him to easily succeed. I’m sure things would have been more successful if he could have come in and made more wholesale changes. We now find ourselves in a position where we have quite an unbalanced team and he has to find some solutions. For me, he is the wrong man at the wrong time, but maybe I’ll look a fool in may! 

[Curtains]

35 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

 

 

Reflections mate reflections

 

[Curtains]

 

[May Contain Nuts]

51 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

They worked at times, but still I didn't see much total 'joined up thinking' on the pitch. To say it's early days ignores preseason and the fact that these are professional footballers. To me they still don't seem to have confidence in how they are playing.

It just followed the same pattern we saw too many times last season.

Play some decent stuff with a bit of variety. Fail to score the first goal. Fail to take any precautions against conceding the first goal by leaving big gaps in between / behind the defence. Concede the first goal. Watch as the opponent sits back a bit. Continue to have more of the ball than the opponent.  Play a bit more directly to try and force an equaliser.

No equaliser? Get progressively more direct and more predictable as the opponent sits even further back.

Equaliser? Immediately push for a second. Push too hard. Leave even bigger gaps at the back. Concede another goal. Cycle repeats, except time is running out. the opposition is even more steadfastly securing their lead and your own football has become extremely direct and hopelessly predictable and easy to defend. Time runs out. 

Convince certain fans that this all means that you dominated the game, should have won it, were just unlucky, that it was all down to individual mistakes which won't happen again and are nothing to do with the way the manager sets us up. Bemoan more individual mistakes a few games later (last season it was conceding penalties, until we tweaked the system and suddenly they seemed to stop happening)

Score first? Immediately push for a second. Take no defensive precautions to hold onto the lead you have. Obliterate s*** teams who don't offer any threat against you. Lose your lead and either draw with or fall to defeat against good teams. Blame the lack of strikers.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[S8TY]

1 hour ago, duncanjwitham said:

Obviously I'm slightly exaggerating for emphasis, but I can also see what's happening on the pitch.  Does anyone here genuinely think that Hourihane, Bird, Smith etc can do the high intensity box-to-box running that Warne seemingly wants them to?  Is Cashin really a part-time overlapping fullback?  Is Sibley really a wingback?  Are NML and Bird really some sort of inside-forwards?  I could go on...

If his entire style is based on having players do these things, and the players we have literally aren't capable of doing them, but he sets us up to do it anyway, what's the alternative explanation?

I'm not necessarily saying that "run around a lot" is his entire style, but I'm not convinced he's ever had to deal with a squad where the majority of players literally can't do that (to the extent he wants anyway).

If the majority can't run thats not good enough because running should be a given... we can all do that ...getting the players fitter and working harder is ok with me

If you look at some teams who press they are not necessarily filled with olympic athletes its more about pressing and closing space as a unit 

If they are not fit enough to run and close spaces etc perhaps they are not right for the system but Bird is a young player as is Sibley and if the manager wants us to be fitter and work harder off of the ball I don't have a problem with that 

 I get what your opinion in questioning whether Cashin etc are the correct players for the roles they are being asked to do but I'm guessing Warne has his methods of getting teams out of this league and thats why he was brought in 

If he sold Cashin,Bird because they don't fit etc i could imagine the uproar on this forum but it seems Warne can't do right from wrong at the moment , 

The proof will come in the results I guess and where we are after 10 games or more but just getting out of this league is our aim I don't personally even care how we do it which is being contradictory because i personally like to see good passing football but DC could've had that by sticking with Liam Rosenior but he chose to change it 

I just want us out of this crap league and back into the championship where we can hopefully reset and get back to where we were, a decent championship side, whether thats with Warne or not I don't care , I like Warne as a person and hope he succeeds but have my doubts like some but I'm behind the team 100 per cent

I think Hourihane has improved his workrate a lot since mid season last season and against Stoke we played some nice stuff at times , the ball played into NML where he scored was not hoofball  ( not saying you called us a hoofball team ) as some suggest and was a nicely worked goal

We had more shots and looked like we'd win on saturday but lost to two errors and that happens in football

I'm not getting carried away by one defeat as i would not have by a victory and will see where we are in 10 games to see if we're contenders and i think we will be 

[Curtains]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

They worked at times, but still I didn't see much total 'joined up thinking' on the pitch. To say it's early days ignores preseason and the fact that these are professional footballers. To me they still don't seem to have confidence in how they are playing.

I think when all the players are fit and Waggy added it will be more cohesive 

PS Could do with another striker and a  box to box midfielder 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Curtains
Added

[duncanjwitham]

3 minutes ago, S8TY said:

If the majority can't run thats not good enough because running should be a given... we can all do that ...getting the players fitter and working harder is ok with me

If you look at some teams who press they are not necessarily filled with olympic athletes its more about pressing and closing space as a unit 

The issue is, we aren't talking about "normal" levels of running/pressing/effort.  We basically seem to be trying to play 2 very defensive central midfielders *and* 2 very attacking ones, except it's the same 2 players sprinting between the 2 positions.  The same with the wider players - playing both winger and fullback at the same time by running between the 2.  And that's why we keep getting caught out at the back, or struggle to get numbers in the box, because the players literally aren't physically capable of nearly being in 2 places at once.

[RoyMac5]

13 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

The issue is, we aren't talking about "normal" levels of running/pressing/effort.  We basically seem to be trying to play 2 very defensive central midfielders *and* 2 very attacking ones, except it's the same 2 players sprinting between the 2 positions.  The same with the wider players - playing both winger and fullback at the same time by running between the 2.  And that's why we keep getting caught out at the back, or struggle to get numbers in the box, because the players literally aren't physically capable of nearly being in 2 places at once.

Its also (as I'm sure you are aware) about more than running - Collins runs around, Didzy and (previously) Morrison pressed. They knew when and where to press, they closed down play. Lots of our pressing shows that our players don't know where the ball might go next.

[May Contain Nuts]

2 hours ago, DCFC_Sloth said:

but he is certainly isnt in a position to really put his stamp on the squad

He is though.

He had 7 and a half months managing us last season to assess what he had within the squad already and to see what he needed to add, to identify players who would be out of contract in the summer who would come in and help turn us into 'his' team. He's had another 2-3 months over the 'summer' to get those players in and brought in 7 of his choosing and now Waggy as the 8th signing. That's not an insignificant number of players (I know they're not all starters) and other managers have 'stamped their mark' on a team with less.

Last season he initially tried to force the 3/5 at the back system on a team who couldn't play it, but saw an improvement (and our best form) when switching it to a back 4. That should have shown him that he doesn't have to go with wing backs to play well and win games in this league. Nevertheless that's how we ended the season, reinstating the wing backs.

What he could/should have learned from that is and that he could make some alterations to his long term strategy. There was scope to come up with something that both considers the abilities of the players he's inherited and those he was planning to bring in, a system where the new players complement the existing players. It doesn't really matter what formation that ended up being, it's more about the play style.

Instead it's like any lessons he may have learned from last season have largely been thrown in the bin. He's seemingly planned around trying to recreate his 21/22 Rotherham set-up regardless of whether we could get the right players in to execute the plan. Surely he knew that certain types of player

The way he's set up this season is back to not suiting some of the same players it didn't suit last season (maybe even more so), whilst simultaneously not really suiting some of the players he's added!   If he's to insist on playing a high defensive line with 2 of the 3CBs overlapping and supporting the attack, why sign Nelson & Bradley over other options, for example?

We do seem to have got the wing back positions correct but that's it, really?

All that said we haven't seen how  Washington & Waghorn will get on when fit, they may prove crucial. One game is too early to damn and doom the whole season, but that one game was still somewhat alarming in the way it made it look so like few of our issues from last season appear to have been fixed in the 9-10 months Warne's been here, and how many new ones seem to have been created.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Kokosnuss said:

It just followed the same pattern we saw too many times last season.

 

Equaliser? Immediately push for a second. Push too hard. Leave even bigger gaps at the back. Concede another goal.

It’s an interesting pattern you describe and I can only see one flaw in the part included above: Other than Wycombe away, I can’t think of a single game in which this pattern occurred under Warne (or indeed any other game last season) - was there another?

i.e.

Opponent 1 Derby 0

Opponent 1 Derby 1

Opponent 2 Derby 1

[duncanjwitham]

17 minutes ago, jameso said:

It’s an interesting pattern you describe and I can only see one flaw in the part included above: Other than Wycombe away, I can’t think of a single game in which this pattern occurred under Warne (or indeed any other game last season) - was there another?

i.e.

Opponent 1 Derby 0

Opponent 1 Derby 1

Opponent 2 Derby 1

I do seem to remember a few games where we went 2-0 down, got a goal back, and then immediately conceded a 3rd to kill off our momentum, which is kind of the same thing.  I think Barnsley away was one.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

I do seem to remember a few games where we went 2-0 down, got a goal back, and then immediately conceded a 3rd to kill off our momentum, which is kind of the same thing.  I think Barnsley away was one.

I think that is the only one of that kind, although I realise I had forgotten the game we lost (with a slightly understrength team) to Man City U21s, which I think also fits the 0-1 ;1-1; 1-2 pattern.

[May Contain Nuts]

42 minutes ago, jameso said:

It’s an interesting pattern you describe and I can only see one flaw in the part included above: Other than Wycombe away, I can’t think of a single game in which this pattern occurred under Warne (or indeed any other game last season) - was there another?

i.e.

Opponent 1 Derby 0

Opponent 1 Derby 1

Opponent 2 Derby 1

No no, you're right tbf and I'll hold my hands up. It certainly wasn't the only time it could have played out like that, but it's the only time it actually did (in the league). 

In my head I had the Ipswich home game as one of those before remembering that our goal was ruled out.

The 'concede another goal' bit relies on 90% of the strikers and wingers in this league being absolutely garbage and not capitalising on the opportunities our complete lack of desire to ever 'close up shop' presented them with - that's the real pattern.

We chucked away quite a few points by not even attempting to close out a game, hence only winning 2 games 1-0 (both at home), and chucking that 2-0 lead away at home to Shrewsbury.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[DiggerB]

4 hours ago, Barney1991 said:

He says he wants legs in the midfield from last season and still hasn’t addressed it and got rid of the player who had legs and hasn’t replaced him.

He didn’t get rid of anyone though did he?

Both midfielders who left pre-season wanted to play at a higher level, and quite rightly the manager doesn’t want anyone here who isn’t 100% committed (which is why I fear the potential signing of Sharp!).

Let’s see what the loan market and the rest of the window brings.