Serial Whingers Notts Forest playtime, which we simply cannot accept.

[Asanovic70]

I don't know really (Forest's survival), part of me cares as it's our arch rival, the other couldn't care less except, repeating myself, they cannot keep spending sums like this as it is unsustainable. FWIW, I think they'll survive: Bournemouth are out of their depth, Southampton have had too much upheaval. I think Leeds have gone on the sort of run that is ominous, 2W in 17. They were lucky to survive last season. 

The Championship is full of ex-PL clubs who had (lengthy) spells in the PL but are now struggling with finances etc, such as Birmingham, Cardiff. Stoke are backed by the Coates family & look where they are. 

On 5live (Sunday), there was a euphoric Forest fan on the phone-in. He took issue with the criticism that they are buying 'PL survival', comparing it to Chelsea, who spent a similar amount on just a couple of players. To paraphrase, he remarked 'We've only spent £186m on 30 players.' Only £186m! He did make the good point, however, that they do have some younger talent: Gibbs-White, Williams, Johnson.

I used to like Alan Biggs, still think he is a good reporter, but couldn't believe how he admired Forest for setting their stall on PL survival after they signed Lingard (twitter).

 Forest have a 30k stadium, (limited revenue). OK, they will receive a lot of money through tv revenue. While they do have the above players as potential assets, they have spent heavily in contrast to the likes of Brighton & Brentford, both recently promoted in the last five years, but who operate under a completely different strategy,  with owners who are involved in the betting/data industry (Bloom & Benham) and use that methodology with how their operate especially in buying talent (low) and selling high.

Interestingly, Chelsea now remind me of the customers, in the Harry Enfield sketch (I Saw You Coming) who used to buy any old tat for a ridiculous price. Only it's young tat that's ridiculously priced on 7 year contracts.

It's a Smashie smash-up of Julio Geordio & I Saw You Coming.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Asanovic70

[Asanovic70]

On 03/02/2023 at 09:31, Srg said:

They sold all theirs for a lot more money though. Burke, Brereton, Appiah etc

Yes, I agree. We've always undersold our best talent. One thing I'd say about the Forest Academy is that they always nurtured it even in bad times and fallen upon it as a back-up resource (Swansea in recent seasons). We may laugh at them, but Mark Warburton's tenure (FFP/embargo, al-Hasawi) saw several young players promoted to the first team, including Matty Cash.

Let's be honest, Forest have regularly sold Academy/home-grown prospects for eight figures. 

I think we are going to value our players more under own new owner & be less easy to exploit after what happened to us because we are going to have to be a club who has to generate its own income than rely on a benefactor who may then walk away.

[Asanovic70]

On 03/02/2023 at 12:00, TuffLuff said:

when you are at a cat 1 academy (or atleast a highly regarded academy) they had is a system in place that had been going for 20 years and was pretty regimented and they know it works. Which is important in that it takes years and years for an academy to get to that stage. The other big thing was that they learnt a multiple of positions and had to be ready to play any position because they could be playing anywhere in an academy game. Now I’m sure this happens at every academy and isn’t too mind blowing as a concept, but he said this was really important because you had to be ‘ready’ to play any position. In simple terms, you had to be an ‘athlete’ essentially. You couldn’t just be technically gifted or a runner, you needed a bit of everything.

This is why I liked Nigel Clough despite whatever criticism (legitimate or not) he receives on here. He came in & rebooted the Academy at a time when we had so few prospects emerging and that took a few years.  He often would ask a player to fill in at another position (make an attacker deputize at full back) as part of their football education so that they gained an understanding of that role, and it might make them realize their overall responsibility to the team & how they often dovetail together since football is also about units and partnerships.

Lionel Pickering (2003), at the opening of Moor Farm, famously envisaged it as producing a steady stream of Academy graduates into the first team ( a team built on them).

I think we are beginning to see that fruition, but it has often come against a chaotic background of two takeovers (2008) & (2022), perhaps a turnover  of staff, so you wonder how much this has impacted upon it. I do think though, we now have an owner (& manager, as well as any future management) who will buy into it as a resource.

[Yoxoram]

1 hour ago, popside ossie end popside said:

Not a proper Rams fan if wanting red dogs to do well

I'm going to assume your comment was meant tongue in cheek but just in case. I have been a season ticket holder in 42 of the last 44 seasons (including the current one). Two missed due to family illness. My record includes 8 seasons not missing a single league game home and away and several others with only the odd game missed. If that is not a proper Rams fan, then please tell me what is? Come on you Rams...

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, Asanovic70 said:

On 5live (Sunday), there was a euphoric Forest fan on the phone-in. He took issue with the criticism that they are buying 'PL survival', comparing it to Chelsea, who spent a similar amount on just a couple of players. To paraphrase, he remarked 'We've only spent £186m on 30 players.' Only £186m! He did make the good point, however, that they do have some younger talent: Gibbs-White, Williams, Johnson.

It's ironic that their representative on here demands apologies for the abuse he apparently got for warning us about DCFC's spending under Mel, yet any comment about their own much heavier (and often random) spending, and the man that is presumably funding much of it at the moment, is met with angry denial and  accusations of 'envy'. 

They just need to follow their own advice and question how sustainable it is if Stavros goes 'pop'.

 

[Asanovic70]

If I was a Forest fan, I'd be enjoying results etc, being in the PL after twenty plus years outside it, (& gloating in our demise) but there'd be a nagging doubt about how sustainable it all is. I'd look at Brighton & Brentford and think I'd rather than scenario TBH.

Portsmouth threw money at things for a period, overseas owner(s) similar crowds (20-30k capacity) and it eventually imploded.

'Our demise': we chucked money at things at second tier level. The PL is literally another league altogether in terms of finance. Footballers are mercenaries, they go where the money is & it is the EPL, spending £800m+ in the January window compared to £188m, the combined spending of the other four major Euro leagues.

They couldn't care less about Nottingham Forest as long as they get handsomely paid. And if Forest, (Bolton, etc) get in financial trouble, they know there will be another foolish club/owner out there willing to pay them.

[Red_Dawn]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

It's ironic that their representative on here demands apologies for the abuse he apparently got for warning us about DCFC's spending under Mel, yet any comment about their own much heavier (and often random) spending, and the man that is presumably funding much of it at the moment, is met with angry denial and  accusations of 'envy'. 

They just need to follow their own advice and question how sustainable it is if Stavros goes 'pop'.

 

The difference being is that you spent money you didn’t have trying to get to the land of milk and honey, then rather than accept the consequences, fudged your books for years and tried every trick in the book to get off the hook. Even now, how much did your new owner pay HMRC? 25p in the pound? Many would suggest you got off extremely lightly. You’ll probably be back in the championship by next season. 

Meanwhile, we largely lived within ours means in the championship, selling academy players for enormous profits every year to balance the books (as observed earlier in this thread) before reaping the benefit of absolute managerial brilliance. A once in a lifetime season under  Steve Cooper. 

Weve only spent the money we have after getting to the PL. If that results in survival, it’ll be well worth it from the revenue we’ll bring in. 

[nottingram]

2 minutes ago, Red_Dawn said:

The difference being is that you spent money you didn’t have trying to get to the land of milk and honey, then rather than accept the consequences, fudged your books for years and tried every trick in the book to get off the hook. Even now, how much did your new owner pay HMRC? 25p in the pound? Many would suggest you got off extremely lightly. You’ll probably be back in the championship by next season. 

Meanwhile, we largely lived within ours means in the championship, selling academy players for enormous profits every year to balance the books (as observed earlier in this thread) before reaping the benefit of absolute managerial brilliance. A once in a lifetime season under  Steve Cooper. 

Weve only spent the money we have after getting to the PL. If that results in survival, it’ll be well worth it from the revenue we’ll bring in. 

Forest got promoted before your owner got bored of covering 8 figure losses. Derby didn’t. That is the difference.

[Red_Dawn]

Just now, nottingram said:

Forest got promoted before your owner got bored of covering 8 figure losses. Derby didn’t. That is the difference.

To the rest of this forum:

Does somebody fancy explaining that your implosion under Morris might be slightly more complicated than this.. 

 

[nottingram]

11 minutes ago, Red_Dawn said:

To the rest of this forum:

Does somebody fancy explaining that your implosion under Morris might be slightly more complicated than this.. 

 

He pulled the plug on the finances and things went (very) south, especially after the EFL have decided some P&S workarounds are fine and some aren’t. Feel free to tell me if I’ve missed something

Things seem to have calmed down in the Championship now but you’re either naive or stupid if you don’t think every club was using whatever loopholes they could find, including your own. 

Derby got caught, c’est la vie. I doubt fans of most clubs will ever realise how lucky or close they are or were to the precipice. As you are showing.

[RadioactiveWaste]

Anyone remember when forest had winding up petitions every other week after fawaz wasn't allowed to waste the family fortune on forest anymore?

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, Red_Dawn said:

The difference being is that you spent money you didn’t have trying to get to the land of milk and honey, then rather than accept the consequences, fudged your books for years and tried every trick in the book to get off the hook. Even now, how much did your new owner pay HMRC? 25p in the pound? Many would suggest you got off extremely lightly. You’ll probably be back in the championship by next season. 

Meanwhile, we largely lived within ours means in the championship, selling academy players for enormous profits every year to balance the books (as observed earlier in this thread) before reaping the benefit of absolute managerial brilliance. A once in a lifetime season under  Steve Cooper. 

Weve only spent the money we have after getting to the PL. If that results in survival, it’ll be well worth it from the revenue we’ll bring in. 

According to Kieran Maguire's analysis you racked up similar cumulative losses to ourselves under Morris over the same period (how many transfer embargos was it - two or three?) and that's even with much higher receipts from player sales. Both the Doughty family and Fazza wrote off significant sums on selling the club and you only escaped a catastrophic points deduction one season by using Fazza's loan write-off as "profit" before that accounting dodge was outlawed. "Living within our means" ? 

 

[Reggie Greenwood]

11 minutes ago, Crewton said:

According to Kieran Maguire's analysis you racked up similar cumulative losses to ourselves under Morris over the same period (how many transfer embargos was it - two or three?) and that's even with much higher receipts from player sales. Both the Doughty family and Fazza wrote off significant sums on selling the club and you only escaped a catastrophic points deduction one season by using Fazza's loan write-off as "profit" before that accounting dodge was outlawed. "Living within our means" ? 

 

And where is the money going to come from to pay the loan  back ? More sales of  the “special stuff “ that Marinikas sells ? A loan that is worth more than the whole of Nottingham. What possibly could go wrong. 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

2 hours ago, Red_Dawn said:

The difference being is that you spent money you didn’t have trying to get to the land of milk and honey, then rather than accept the consequences, fudged your books for years and tried every trick in the book to get off the hook. Even now, how much did your new owner pay HMRC? 25p in the pound? Many would suggest you got off extremely lightly. You’ll probably be back in the championship by next season. 

Meanwhile, we largely lived within ours means in the championship, selling academy players for enormous profits every year to balance the books (as observed earlier in this thread) before reaping the benefit of absolute managerial brilliance. A once in a lifetime season under  Steve Cooper. 

Weve only spent the money we have after getting to the PL. If that results in survival, it’ll be well worth it from the revenue we’ll bring in. 

Yes .  You only lost 202 million over 10 years and got saved from FFP devastation by Fawaz 90 million write off under new owner rules.  All by the book and within your means. 

[Zag zig]

On 05/02/2023 at 15:58, WystonRam said:

TBH they’re doing a good job, no chance they will be relegated, Leeds looked leggy by comparison today, Ayling particularly. We would be happy to be in their position if we were honest. .

Them or Leeds, you would have to say Leeds right now. Like a few have said Forest have done well enough at home. In the next 6 games, the Everton game doesn’t look so easy now, so with Man City and Newcastle the other homes, with a trip to Spurs, maybe they need something at West Ham or Fulham away in the matches coming up.

They could soon get pulled lower but you’re right we’d be more than happy in their position. I’m quite sure a good few from both sets of fans, are a little disappointed old rivals are faring better than each expected, if being truly honest.

[Bris Vegas]

Forest’s rise has tipped Leeds, Wolves and Everton into action.

Each will be thinking how Forest are possibly doing better despite having an inferior squad pieced together in six months.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

2 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Forest’s rise has tipped Leeds, Wolves and Everton into action.

Each will be thinking how Forest are possibly doing better despite having an inferior squad pieced together in six months.

Last week they were putting up road blocks to shout at players, demanding a bloke who's put in 500 million dares not enter the ground,  sending death threats to Kenwright who basically provided the fund to keep them competitive for years  and ringing talk sport screaming about how the club was doomed and would go out of business having suffered a single relegation in 70 years.  This week of course it will all Dyches army and survival is on .  Europe next year eh.  If forest hadn't been there, T'd love them to go. If Forest don't go my consolation would be them.  Don't know they're born. 

[Jourdan]

Five wins and one draw needed to reach the ‘magic 40’, or 16 points in 17 games.

It’s really difficult to see them going down from this position. Sadly I think the teams around them are in too much turmoil to really put them under pressure.

Bournemouth and Southampton are starting to look dead and buried. We’ve been waiting for Leicester, Wolves, West Ham, Leeds and Everton to get their acts together, and we’re still waiting.

Meanwhile Forest are starting to get into the habit of clawing and scratching their way to a win. Five of their six league wins have been at home, five of their six wins have also been by a single goal.

It would take a collapse for the ages for them to go down now. We live in hope.

[alram]

22 hours ago, Asanovic70 said:

If I was a Forest fan, I'd be enjoying results etc, being in the PL after twenty plus years outside it, (& gloating in our demise) but there'd be a nagging doubt about how sustainable it all is. I'd look at Brighton & Brentford and think I'd rather than scenario TBH.

Portsmouth threw money at things for a period, overseas owner(s) similar crowds (20-30k capacity) and it eventually imploded.

'Our demise': we chucked money at things at second tier level. The PL is literally another league altogether in terms of finance. Footballers are mercenaries, they go where the money is & it is the EPL, spending £800m+ in the January window compared to £188m, the combined spending of the other four major Euro leagues.

They couldn't care less about Nottingham Forest as long as they get handsomely paid. And if Forest, (Bolton, etc) get in financial trouble, they know there will be another foolish club/owner out there willing to pay them.

it is the madness of the premier league and why people gamble with the futures of the club to get there.

if they stay up they have earnt back evey penny they have spent with a huge chunk of change to spare. the spending is only unsustainable if they come down and stay down for 3 years which rarely happens nowadays unless there is massive mismanagement taken place like at Sunderland such is the gulf of difference between the Prem & everybody else.

Edited February 7, 2023 by alram

[Sparkle]

I would have thought all those in the premiership ( or have been) will be very worried by what’s happening with Manchester City as in going back over ten years and in detail about those finances - I mean 30 players signed very quickly with a history of them swapping between a club here and one in Greece, what’s the chances of all that being above board ? 
The main thing will be the other clubs not liking being pushed out of the premiership potentially and can afford to influence the direction of various future investigations - you tend to think that football can very quickly implode at the highest level and it looks like Manchester City clearly look exposed.