The Ukraine War

[Crewton]

Neo-Nazis connected to the Kremlin? Surely not?! 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/11/neo-nazi-russian-militia-appeals-for-intelligence-on-nato-member-states?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

[Ramarena]

Zelensky in the US today and a new arms package is announced including Patriots being sent to help protect Ukrainian citizens from Russian missile and drone attacks.

Putin isn’t a happy bunny!

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

15 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

Zelensky in the US today and a new arms package is announced including Patriots being sent to help protect Ukrainian citizens from Russian missile and drone attacks.

Putin isn’t a happy bunny!

Vlad has not been his happy self for a while and we dont want a grumpy dictator, do we?

[uttoxram75]

We have some Ukrainian refugees working with us now. Zelensky is not popular with the few I've spoken to. Their English is limited so there's no real nuance but by facial expressions, body language and tone, Putin and Zelensky have the same respect, namely none.

[GboroRam]

24 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

We have some Ukrainian refugees working with us now. Zelensky is not popular with the few I've spoken to. Their English is limited so there's no real nuance but by facial expressions, body language and tone, Putin and Zelensky have the same respect, namely none.

Strange, I've had contact with a few Ukrainians and universally he's a hero. I've also had contact with a couple of refugees who basically admitted they were Russians fleeing Russia. Maybe you've got a couple of similar ones. 

[uttoxram75]

8 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Strange, I've had contact with a few Ukrainians and universally he's a hero. I've also had contact with a couple of refugees who basically admitted they were Russians fleeing Russia. Maybe you've got a couple of similar ones. 

Definitely Ukrainian but only a small sample so who knows? Some will have very different opinions no doubt. 

You only have to look at how we look at our leaders I suppose. People like Thatcher were worshipped by some and hated by others, I don't suppose other countries leaders are any different.

[Tamworthram]

8 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

Definitely Ukrainian but only a small sample so who knows? Some will have very different opinions no doubt. 

You only have to look at how we look at our leaders I suppose. People like Thatcher were worshipped by some and hated by others, I don't suppose other countries leaders are any different.

That’s the thing with politicians, they will always have their supporters and haters. But, unless they are pro-Russian Ukrainians, for all his failings I find it hard to imagine that anymore than a tiny minority of people Ukraine would rate Zelenski on a par with Putin whilst they are fighting for their lives and independence.

Maybe the ones you have come into contact with think Zelenski should negotiate for peace and cede the eastern provinces to Russia. I could understand that point of view - putting the lives of your family and friends above the ownership of a couple of provinces you may not care much about. But, as I say, I suspect they are very much in the minority. Who know’s. As ever, propaganda tends to block the the full truth. Maybe they think he should be more of a Chamberlain than a Churchill (who despite his wartime popularity was voted out of office almost immediately after WW2 I believe).

[i-Ram]

3 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

That’s the thing with politicians, they will always have their supporters and haters. ……. Maybe they think he should be more of a Chamberlain than a Churchill (who despite his wartime popularity was voted out of office almost immediately after WW2 I believe).

Wrong. Churchill stood down at the end of the war and established a well regarded car and home insurance outfit. 

[Dimmu]

It was hardly uncommon to not like Zelensky as 27% didn't want him as a president. Populistic and vague politics with some unresolved connections with offshore company makes it understandable and as such some where ready to put him in the same corrupted category as so many oligarks.

But once the invasion started, his popularity has skyrocketed and is thought to be firmly over 90% since. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Dimmu

[Crewton]

58 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

That’s the thing with politicians, they will always have their supporters and haters. But, unless they are pro-Russian Ukrainians, for all his failings I find it hard to imagine that anymore than a tiny minority of people Ukraine would rate Zelenski on a par with Putin whilst they are fighting for their lives and independence.

Maybe the ones you have come into contact with think Zelenski should negotiate for peace and cede the eastern provinces to Russia. I could understand that point of view - putting the lives of your family and friends above the ownership of a couple of provinces you may not care much about. But, as I say, I suspect they are very much in the minority. Who know’s. As ever, propaganda tends to block the the full truth. Maybe they think he should be more of a Chamberlain than a Churchill (who despite his wartime popularity was voted out of office almost immediately after WW2 I believe).

Good post. Churchill wasn't universally popular even as wartime leader - many remember his earlier record in Government and his less than sensitive approach to industrial relations. When he was narrowly voted back into office in 1951, he was a disaster. In reality, it was probably his inspiring rhetoric and ceaseless diplomatic efforts with the other Allied leaders that salvaged his reputation. The same may eventually be true of Zelenskiy. 

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

Good post. Churchill wasn't universally popular even as wartime leader - many remember his earlier record in Government and his less than sensitive approach to industrial relations. When he was narrowly voted back into office in 1951, he was a disaster. In reality, it was probably his inspiring rhetoric and ceaseless diplomatic efforts with the other Allied leaders that salvaged his reputation. The same may eventually be true of Zelenskiy. 

Churchill was a man for the time, He slept well when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour knowing the War will be won with limitless supply of men and machines, If the USA hadn't blocked French Indochina from the Japanese ripping off their minerals I wonder if Pearl Harbour would ever have happened 

[Crewton]

47 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Churchill was a man for the time, He slept well when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour knowing the War will be won with limitless supply of men and machines, If the USA hadn't blocked French Indochina from the Japanese ripping off their minerals I wonder if Pearl Harbour would ever have happened 

War between Japan and the USA was probably inevitable, but the US public was isolationist at the time and so the govt were unlikely to start one unless Japan attacked first. Fortunately for us, they did so because crippling the US fleet was the only chance they had to defeat the US and be left free to consolidate their expansion across the Pacific. You probably know that, even after the attack, the US only declared war on Japan, not Germany. Hitler then made his biggest mistake of the war by declaring war on the US without any real provocation. "Luck" was certainly on our side. 

[Ram-Alf]

2 minutes ago, Crewton said:

War between Japan and the USA was probably inevitable, but the US public was isolationist at the time and so the govt were unlikely to start one unless Japan attacked first. Fortunately for us, they did so because crippling the US fleet was the only chance they had to defeat the US and be left free to consolidate their expansion across the Pacific. You probably know that, even after the attack, the US only declared war on Japan, not Germany. Hitler then made his biggest mistake of the war by declaring war on the US without any real provocation. "Luck" was certainly on our side. 

Yep, The battle of Midway was won because the USA aircraft carriers were out at sea and missed(not seen), The Japanese were fed propaganda from birth, The Army taking control, There was a comment from a British Politician(name forgotten)where he said...the Japanese will not make very good pilots as they'd lose their balance when in the air because they were carried on the Mothers backs from birth ?

[Ramarena]

4 hours ago, Crewton said:

Good post. Churchill wasn't universally popular even as wartime leader - many remember his earlier record in Government and his less than sensitive approach to industrial relations. When he was narrowly voted back into office in 1951, he was a disaster. In reality, it was probably his inspiring rhetoric and ceaseless diplomatic efforts with the other Allied leaders that salvaged his reputation. The same may eventually be true of Zelenskiy. 

Indeed.

Sometimes a politician is the right person at the right time. Both Churchill and Zelensky fit that description.

How Zelensky fares after the war (whenever that is) will be interesting. There was an article I saw last month, where he hinted he may step down once peace is secured. I think he’s smart operator and will know when the time is right to hand over the legacy. 

One thing that interests me is the negativity towards him from some quarters in the west. This guy’s country was invaded and he had a Wagner hit squad sent to kill him.

He was given a opportunity to escape and refused it to stay with his people. How many of these armchair internet warriors would have done the same?

[Ramarena]

Seeing reports of Wagner and the Russian army withdrawing from Bakhmut, which has been an horrific, gruesome and costly offensive.

They’ve lost thousands of men on that front, it’s been a total meat grinder. 

Seems strange they’ve suddenly decide to drop the offensive after spilling so much blood over it. Maybe they are running low on manpower again?

[Crewton]

3 hours ago, Ramarena said:

Seeing reports of Wagner and the Russian army withdrawing from Bakhmut, which has been an horrific, gruesome and costly offensive.

They’ve lost thousands of men on that front, it’s been a total meat grinder. 

Seems strange they’ve suddenly decide to drop the offensive after spilling so much blood over it. Maybe they are running low on manpower again?

"Establishing more secure positions on the Eastern bank of the Dniepr" is what I've seen suggested, which sounds sensible from their POV now that Winter is setting in. 

[Ramarena]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

"Establishing more secure positions on the Eastern bank of the Dniepr" is what I've seen suggested, which sounds sensible from their POV now that Winter is setting in. 

Yes, strangely sensible for them. 

The other thing I've seen mentioned is that Bakhmut was solely a PR exercise so Putin could declare a victory on a front they thought Ukraine was weakest, with Prigozhin pushing the objective to prove Wagner could deliver the win. But with the onset of winter and the huge losses, that win has lost it's urgency and they are focussing on other "wins". 

[Ramarena]

Nice of the Russians to shell Kherson market on Christmas Eve when they know it’ll be at its busiest.

Eight are dead and dozens of civilians injured who Russia said were their own kin a few weeks ago!

 

[Ramarena]

Seeing reports of Ukrainian soldiers entering Kreminna tonight.

If true this could be an interesting and potentially big development on that front.

[Mr Tibbs]

With little to no real air support on that eastern flank I finding baffling the AFU can keep clawing back territory. Kremina would be a nice achievement before the NY.