The Ukraine War

[Leeds Ram]

On 11/09/2022 at 09:02, Unlucky Alf said:

I watched a Documentary on Netflix the other day by John Pilger...it certainly opened my eyes and brain more than what I thought about the good old US of A

Have a read or better still if you have Netflix watch it and see how the States have monopolised the South China Sees, Below is the story and video.

http://johnpilger.com/videos/the-coming-war-on-china

A proxy War is being played out in Ukraine with a huge chunk of $s and arms being sent to Ukraine courtesy of America, Putin/Russia now appear to be on the back foot at the expense of 10s of 1000s of Ukrainians and Russians on both sides.

Putin now it would seem only has Gas to fight with, Europe will struggle this Winter as will Russian forces even more, My guess is Putin has been played like a cheap fiddle and America is pulling the strings. 

Avoid Pilger at all costs. Even Monbiot (not someone i've got a lot of time for) nails him for his misinformation. 
 

 

[Highgate]

8 hours ago, Archied said:

Yep that is a very big issue that has not been spoken about enough , no one should be forced to take up arms to kill or be killed 

I couldn't agree with that more.  Particularly that you mention the fact that conscripts are expected to kill for their country as well as risking their own death.  Nation states shouldn't have that sort of power over people in my opinion.  

However, it seems that it is almost taken for granted though that countries can enact these sort of measures during wartime.  Like during the two World Wars or the American Vietnam War for example.

 

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Highgate said:

I couldn't agree with that more.  Particularly that you mention the fact that conscripts are expected to kill for their country as well as risking their own death.  Nation states shouldn't have that sort of power over people in my opinion.  

However, it seems that it is almost taken for granted though that countries can enact these sort of measures during wartime.  Like during the two World Wars or the American Vietnam War for example.

 

I’m too old to be conscripted if it ever happened but if I wasn’t there’s no way I would be killing anyone on the whim and say so of dodgy politicians sitting in they’re comfy homes , no way would I allow my son to go either ,,,,, them days are gone 

[GboroRam]

1 minute ago, Archied said:

I’m too old to be conscripted if it ever happened but if I wasn’t there’s no way I would be killing anyone on the whim and say so of dodgy politicians sitting in they’re comfy homes , no way would I allow my son to go either ,,,,, them days are gone 

To be fair, I don't think you can accuse Zelenski of sitting in his comfy home. He's been quite front line. 

[Archied]

1 hour ago, GboroRam said:

To be fair, I don't think you can accuse Zelenski of sitting in his comfy home. He's been quite front line. 

Wasn’t particularly / exclusively talking zelenski but let’s be fair fair he is not front line going over the top Ala black adder day in day out,

would you go out and kill or send your children to kill or die in this day and age of needless wars driven and manipulated by faceless gutless money and power greedy men ?

Edited September 12, 2022 by Archied

[Highgate]

I have nothing but respect for the Ukrainians choosing to defend their country from Putin's invading army, but I don't think any state should have the right to compel it's citizens to go to war.  

[GboroRam]

23 minutes ago, Highgate said:

I have nothing but respect for the Ukrainians choosing to defend their country from Putin's invading army, but I don't think any state should have the right to compel it's citizens to go to war.  

I agree - but I do understand the rationale behind enforcing conscription when your country is invaded by a nuclear superpower. 

[Highgate]

23 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I agree - but I do understand the rationale behind enforcing conscription when your country is invaded by a nuclear superpower. 

Yes, clearly they will argue that such a desperate situation calls for such desperate measures. 

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

Wasn’t particularly / exclusively talking zelenski but let’s be fair fair he is not front line going over the top Ala black adder day in day out,

would you go out and kill or send your children to kill or die in this day and age of needless wars driven and manipulated by faceless gutless money and power greedy men ?

An angry imogi from Leeds ram ??, for the above , happy to send peoples kids to die and kill for Tony Blair? Countless other conflicts?
 

would carry a stretcher but no way on earth would I kill for the elites, if you would then fair play to you

you know what ,, if everyone took that stance wars are no more , no Russian soldiers to invade Ukrainian for a start , my hope is one day we evolve to this stage as a species then the megalomaniac s have no power to manipulate the masses into being weapons and pawns 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Archied

[uttoxram75]

37 minutes ago, Archied said:

An angry imogi from Leeds ram ??, for the above , happy to send peoples kids to die and kill for Tony Blair? Countless other conflicts?
 

would carry a stretcher but no way on earth would I kill for the elites, if you would then fair play to you

you know what ,, if everyone took that stance wars are no more , no Russian soldiers to invade Ukrainian for a start , my hope is one day we evolve to this stage as a species then the megalomaniac s have no power to manipulate the masses into being weapons and pawns 

"A bayonet is a weapon with a worker at either end".

A wise old soldier told me that many years ago.

[Comrade 86]

It's rather odd that all the talk is now of Ukraine's 'enforced conscription' and not of the illegal and war crime strewn occupation of a neighbouring state that brought it about.

FWIW, I think rather less of continued shelling of the vulnerable as they traverse escape corridors during supposedly agreed ceasefires, than I do of putting a weapon in a man's hand and insisting, 'step up brother, you must help us fight to save our country.' Had Germany breached our air and sea defences in WW2, what do folk suppose would have happened here? 

I think that while we sit in our armchairs and opine on what we would and would not do in a warzone, we might also be a little more understanding of those whose entire world has become one. 

[Highgate]

1 hour ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

It's rather odd that all the talk is now of Ukraine's 'enforced conscription' and not of the illegal and war crime strewn occupation of a neighbouring state that brought it about.

FWIW, I think rather less of continued shelling of the vulnerable as they traverse escape corridors during supposedly agreed ceasefires, than I do of putting a weapon in a man's hand and insisting, 'step up brother, you must help us fight to save our country.' Had Germany breached our air and sea defences in WW2, what do folk suppose would have happened here? 

I think that while we sit in our armchairs and opine on what we would and would not do in a warzone, we might also be a little more understanding of those whose entire world has become one. 

Well that's a good point and there is no denying that's Putin's decision to invade and the subsequent war crimes are the real issue here.  But I don't think that means we have to ignore conscription altogether. 

In the case of the Ukrainians now, or indeed when any country finds themselves invaded by a hostile power, I'd entirely agree that it's the right thing to do for someone to 'step up and help save the country' but I don't think it's right that people have no choice whether they do so or not.  Do our lives and bodies belong to us as individuals or do they belong to the country we call home, I think that's an important question at any time.  Having said that, I've got nothing but respect and admiration for those Ukrainians who've joined up to serve since the invasion. 

Interesting question about WW2. I guess Britain would have been occupied...and it would have proven a very awkward country for Germany to hold onto. But if Germany did manage to do so, I presume Britain's experience would have been very much like the other occupied European countries and all the horrors that that entailed. Then the whole question on the outcome of the war may then have hinged on whether, with Britain occupied, the US would have entered the war in Europe or not.  If it did, then it's difficult to see how Germany could have won against the US and the Soviets, regardless of the status of Britain. Although you'd have to assume it would have taken the Allies longer to triumph under those circumstances.  I'm aware that all of this is nothing more than wild guesswork. 

After all that I'm beginning to realize that your question may have been rhetorical.. ?

[Archied]

7 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

It's rather odd that all the talk is now of Ukraine's 'enforced conscription' and not of the illegal and war crime strewn occupation of a neighbouring state that brought it about.

FWIW, I think rather less of continued shelling of the vulnerable as they traverse escape corridors during supposedly agreed ceasefires, than I do of putting a weapon in a man's hand and insisting, 'step up brother, you must help us fight to save our country.' Had Germany breached our air and sea defences in WW2, what do folk suppose would have happened here? 

I think that while we sit in our armchairs and opine on what we would and would not do in a warzone, we might also be a little more understanding of those whose entire world has become one. 

I certainly do not intend to excuse one action by another, being ordered to kill or be killed by anyone is wrong 

[Ram-Alf]

6 hours ago, Highgate said:

 

Interesting question about WW2. I guess Britain would have been occupied...and it would have proven a very awkward country for Germany to hold onto. But if Germany did manage to do so, I presume Britain's experience would have been very much like the other occupied European countries and all the horrors that that entailed. Then the whole question on the outcome of the war may then have hinged on whether, with Britain occupied, the US would have entered the war in Europe or not.  If it did, then it's difficult to see how Germany could have won against the US and the Soviets, regardless of the status of Britain. Although you'd have to assume it would have taken the Allies longer to triumph under those circumstances.  I'm aware that all of this is nothing more than wild guesswork. 

 

Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf..."be very careful when you wage war on the British, They fight long and hard" or words to that effect, An Army is a finite resource(without conscription)you occupy more foreign land and it takes more resources away ie when Russia(Stalingrad)was invaded by Germany, Their 6th Army was stripped of equipment and men to support other forces, Then they decimated areas of Stalingrad only for the Russians to use those bombed out building to fight a gorilla war, Then of course there was a nasty Winter to fight in and supplies were thin on the ground coming from the air.

The bombing of Pearl Harbour was a god send to Churchill as he knew the USA were now entering the War and had one of the best nights sleep for ages.

Operation Sea Lion was a game changer in the theatre of War, Germany couldn't defeat the RAF ? 

[Stive Pesley]

52 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf..."be very careful when you wage war on the British, They fight long and hard" or words to that effect

Hopefully some of our more regular posters can reach over to their bedside table and clarify the exact wording for you ?

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

Hopefully some of our more regular posters can reach over to their bedside table and clarify the exact wording for you ?

That quote of mine above was from speaking to my Austrian Sister who found the book Mein Kampf read it then gave it away.

This is a quote from Friedrich Wiedemann who was a Courtier of AH.

 “If I had a choice between Italy and England”, he told another courtier in 1936, “I would naturally go with the English … I know the Englishmen from the last war, they are hard fellows"

Found the quote.

 “the English nation will have to be considered the most valuable ally in the world as long as its leadership and the spirit of its broad masses justify us in expecting that brutality and perseverance which is determined to fight a battle once begun to a victorious end, with every means and without consideration of time and sacrifices; and what is more, the military armament existing at any given moment does not need to stand in any proportion to that of other states

Edited September 13, 2022 by Unlucky Alf

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

Hopefully some of our more regular posters can reach over to their bedside table and clarify the exact wording for you ?

Did mien kampf have any views on women drinking coffee in the countryside ?

[Crewton]

Some people are getting confused between foreign wars (of whatever nature) and a fight for survival as an independent nation. Staying home and waiting for the invader can be as dangerous as being forced to join the armed forces. Running away and letting your fellow citizens do all of the fighting and dying doesn't seem very public spirited, but I agree that the less capable or those who just can't face the likelihood that they might have to kill the invader are probably best out of it.

There's plenty of Ukrainian males who have become refugees, so the "enforced service" narrative may well be anti-ukrainian disinformation. 

[Highgate]

3 hours ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf..."be very careful when you wage war on the British, They fight long and hard" or words to that effect, An Army is a finite resource(without conscription)you occupy more foreign land and it takes more resources away ie when Russia(Stalingrad)was invaded by Germany, Their 6th Army was stripped of equipment and men to support other forces, Then they decimated areas of Stalingrad only for the Russians to use those bombed out building to fight a gorilla war, Then of course there was a nasty Winter to fight in and supplies were thin on the ground coming from the air.

The bombing of Pearl Harbour was a god send to Churchill as he knew the USA were now entering the War and had one of the best nights sleep for ages.

Operation Sea Lion was a game changer in the theatre of War, Germany couldn't defeat the RAF ? 

He probably should also have written 'Don't bother invading Russia'.  After all more than 80% of German soldiers were killed on the Eastern Front.  Was it Max Hastings, I can't remember, some distinguished military historian anyway, who said that Germany had the best army (not navy obviously) during the war but the worst leadership.  Hitler, never seemed to listen to his generals and made a whole series of strategic blunders, playing right into Allied hands.  None worse than invading the Soviet Union. 

I hope the current Russian army is far less motivated than their Red Army predecessors.  The 'Great Patriotic War' seems to be engrained in the Russian psyche.  Even to the extent that now, when Putin wants to demonize an enemy, he calls them 'fascist' to recall the great enemy from the past.  And that's what he, and the state controlled media in Russia are doing, portraying Ukraine as some kind of fascist state, allied with the West threatening Russia once more. Given the nature of the state control over the media in Russia now, I guess many Russians actually believe it, and actually think that the Russian Army is fighting Fascism all over again.  And this is despite the fact that if you were to look up the definition of a fascist, you'd find Putin ticking far more of the boxes than someone like Zelensky, a lot more.  This whole war is being sold to the Russian people on a mountain of lies and twisted propaganda and it's truly depressing. 

Apologies, I appeared to have wandered off your point there.  

[Ramarena]

Conscription is always a bad thing. However in extreme circumstances it may be necessary, think WW2 and Ukraine today.

Sadly many Ukrainians in the south and east were killed by the invading force, before they could even be conscripted!