The Ukraine War

[ramit]

There should never have been any elections, the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic would still have existed if not for coup.  Stooge he was, voters get fooled all the time, as we in the west intimately know.

Perhaps the Tatars, but it's complicated, there was the Ottoman Empire utilizing Crimea for influence.

BBC, UN, meh, same difference, both largely controlled by Sam.

[Comrade 86]

While I don't agree with some of what  @ramit has said, I don't think that pointing out that the West is not entirely blameless either, currently or historically, really warrants some of the responses elicited. While I don't disagree that the world would be a far better place without the likes of Putin, I'd have said the same about Bush - Rumsfeld cabal and our own Tony Blair too.

FWIW, I don't believe that the long term fix for global peace and security is as simple as 'putting the Ruskies back in their box'. Even if this were actually feasible, the divide would not end there. If historical Western incursions and proxy wars in the ME and Africa have not taught us that our own 'leaders' are hardly whiter than white, then perhaps some introspection is due. 

[Highgate]

1 hour ago, Comrade 86 said:

While I don't agree with some of what  @ramit has said, I don't think that pointing out that the West is not entirely blameless either, currently or historically, really warrants some of the responses elicited. While I don't disagree that the world would be a far better place without the likes of Putin, I'd have said the same about Bush - Rumsfeld cabal and our own Tony Blair too.

FWIW, I don't believe that the long term fix for global peace and security is as simple as 'putting the Ruskies back in their box'. Even if this were actually feasible, the divide would not end there. If historical Western incursions and proxy wars in the ME and Africa have not taught us that our own 'leaders' are hardly whiter than white, then perhaps some introspection is due. 

I think if you look from the end of WWII onwards, the most destructive influence in world and the country most responsible for deaths to civilians in other parts of the world has been the US. I don't know how anyone could really argue against this point.  While friendly to us here in Western Europe the US has left a trail of destruction in it's wake from Central and South America to the Middle East and the Far East, much of caused by it's constant Cold War battle with the Soviet Union. But then it was also the most powerful country, and to be honest had the Soviet Union or China had the military reach that the US did, I think they may have been just as destructive, let alone the European powers who had proved themselves so malign globally in the previous centuries. It does seem to be getting steadily more difficult for the US to conduct wars or regimes changes as blatantly as it once did.  I can't image the US being able to carpet bomb countries that it isn't even at war with anymore, like it did in the Vietnam war, without a massive outcry and backlash in the US. Not referring to anyone here but I think a mistake's that some on the left make is to think that because of the international crimes that the US has committed, that that somehow makes their adversaries more appealing.  When in fact they are merely different but probably just as bad in intent, if less powerful than the US has been.  

When it comes to Ukraine it seems clear to me where the blame for all this needless death lies. This is Putin's War, and realistically only he can stop it.  The US has little blame for this starting this current conflict in my opinion, but that doesn't mean we should forget all the international crimes they have committed in the past. 

[Comrade 86]

30 minutes ago, Highgate said:

I think if you look from the end of WWII onwards, the most destructive influence in world and the country most responsible for deaths to civilians in other parts of the world has been the US. I don't know how anyone could really argue against this point.  While friendly to us here in Western Europe the US has left a trail of destruction in it's wake from Central and South America to the Middle East and the Far East, much of caused by it's constant Cold War battle with the Soviet Union. But then it was also the most powerful country, and to be honest had the Soviet Union or China had the military reach that the US did, I think they may have been just as destructive, let alone the European powers who had proved themselves so malign globally in the previous centuries. It does seem to be getting steadily more difficult for the US to conduct wars or regimes changes as blatantly as it once did.  I can't image the US being able to carpet bomb countries that it isn't even at war with anymore, like it did in the Vietnam war, without a massive outcry and backlash in the US. Not referring to anyone here but I think a mistake's that some on the left make is to think that because of the international crimes that the US has committed, that that somehow makes their adversaries more appealing.  When in fact they are merely different but probably just as bad in intent, if less powerful than the US has been.  

When it comes to Ukraine it seems clear to me where the blame for all this needless death lies. This is Putin's War, and realistically only he can stop it.  The US has little blame for this starting this current conflict in my opinion, but that doesn't mean we should forget all the international crimes they have committed in the past. 

I think 'appealing' is something of a stretch, but I agree with the balance of your post. I think the one thing we can all agree on is that war is horrific, irrespective of the 'players' and their reasoning. I would also say that by continuing to arm the Israelis, who have levelled Gaza in the same way Russia has parts of Ukraine, we forfeit all right to the moral high ground. FWIW, I now view proxy wars with the same disgust as those waged directly. The net results are entirely the same, after all.

[Ram-Alf]

8 hours ago, Highgate said:

I think if you look from the end of WWII onwards, the most destructive influence in world and the country most responsible for deaths to civilians in other parts of the world has been the US. I don't know how anyone could really argue against this point.  While friendly to us here in Western Europe the US has left a trail of destruction in it's wake from Central and South America to the Middle East and the Far East, much of caused by it's constant Cold War battle with the Soviet Union. But then it was also the most powerful country.

WW1 the USA had the man power but not the armoury, They had to use our equipment until supplies reached the UK, WW2 without the USA with their ability to change their production from cars to weapons supply the war would have carried on and on and on, There's a saying...Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eaton...WW2 was won on the drawing boards of Detroit. 

The USA has this miss understanding that the rest of the world are cowering under their ability to strike anywhere in the world, Korea, Vietnam, Threats to Cuba, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria. The CIA promising African Countries/South American countries with arms to overthrow an elected 😉 regime, Now you have China in Africa building roads and bridges with huge loans, Russia they're doing the same and taking huge swathes of minerals.

China building Islands in the south China seas, China wanting to take Taiwan back, Russia's threats to Moldova(bad call imo)The big players are the USA and China if these 2 go at it the world is toast.

There's been countries all around the world since Jesus was a kid where the big ones take over the little ones, It's now a case of "my Brother is bigger than yours" who are just a phone call away.

 

 

 

Edited June 20 by Ram-Alf

[Mucker1884]

22 hours ago, Gaspode said:

If my next door neighbour invaded a chunk of my back garden, I'd be a bit miffed and I'd ask him to leave - if he refused, I might escalate to the point where I started throwing bricks at him....

Blimey!  😲
I was expecting "a strongly worded letter from my solicitor" twixt the two.

Remind me never to upset you!

[Highgate]

6 hours ago, Ram-Alf said:

 

China building Islands in the south China seas, China wanting to take Taiwan back, Russia's threats to Moldova(bad call imo)The big players are the USA and China if these 2 go at it the world is toast.

There's been countries all around the world since Jesus was a kid where the big ones take over the little ones, It's now a case of "my Brother is bigger than yours" who are just a phone call away.

Yeah, we all better hope that doesn't happen, with Taiwan the obvious potential flashpoint.

 

[uttoxram75]

23 hours ago, Gaspode said:

If my next door neighbour invaded a chunk of my back garden, I'd be a bit miffed and I'd ask him to leave - if he refused, I might escalate to the point where I started throwing bricks at him....if someone came along and told me I should stop that and make peace with him, I really can't envisage a situation where I'd be happy for him to keep a part of my garden just to keep the peace.....

If your neighbour was considerably bigger and stronger than you, you would have to throw bricks at him whilst wearing a balaclava.

cough<Ireland>cough

[Ramarena]

Another ISIS attack, this time in Dagestan. 

Seems to have been aimed at Pentecost celebrations in two different cities.

Some terrorists have been killed, but reports suggest the situation is ongoing. 

Initial reports are saying that a strange twist to the story, is that the head of the regions sons were amongst the terrorists and he himself has been arrested.

Obviously, Medvedev is out of the gates already blaming US, NATO, Ukraine.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crgggwg158do.amp

Edited Sunday at 22:03 by Ramarena

[Ram-Alf]

8 hours ago, Ramarena said:

Another ISIS attack, this time in Dagestan. 

Seems to have been aimed at Pentecost celebrations in two different cities.

Some terrorists have been killed, but reports suggest the situation is ongoing. 

Initial reports are saying that a strange twist to the story, is that the head of the regions sons were amongst the terrorists and he himself has been arrested.

Obviously, Medvedev is out of the gates already blaming US, NATO, Ukraine.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crgggwg158do.amp

"President Vladimir Putin had insisted that "Russia cannot be the target of terrorist attacks by Islamic fundamentalists” because it “demonstrates a unique example of interfaith harmony and inter-religious and inter-ethnic unity”.

🙄

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, Ram-Alf said:

"President Vladimir Putin had insisted that "Russia cannot be the target of terrorist attacks by Islamic fundamentalists” because it “demonstrates a unique example of interfaith harmony and inter-religious and inter-ethnic unity”.

🙄

It's true Alf - he's regarded in the same way by Chechens and Tatars as Comrade Stalin was.

[Ram-Alf]

The Death of Stalin...the movie, I'm never quite sure as to whether i'ts a comedy, Drama, Documentary or a serious portrayal of uncle Joe 😉 and all, I must have watched it 10 times and still enjoy the fear he had over some of the most fearsome people of the day in Russia.

When Stalin had captured a dissident his wife begged him to let her take him home, He was true to his word, He had him cut to pieces put in bags and delivered home, He even had his Son executed, I'm sure the Russians(not all)are just not wired right   

Edited Monday at 09:54 by Ram-Alf

[Ram-Alf]

Wow!

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/russia-announces-sending-10-000-migrants-to-front-in-ukraine/ar-BB1oZUKu?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=5d0b97ec62604a52ba0e247f19497322&ei=12