Sparkle Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 34 minutes ago, atherstoneram said: So if they don't get it,it could be liquidation. It won’t be as the MPs indicated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilkleyram Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 2 hours ago, RamBeauIV said: I think RipleyRich has hit the nail on the head w.r.t. HMRC, but as one of the Rammettes said (about 500 pages ago), in all likelihood, we will be paying HMRC 25% upfront on exiting administration AND then a payment plan for the next 2 years (probably £750K a month or whatever it takes). HMRC are not going to let us off £20M+ (END OF CHAT). Otherwise they will be setting a dangerous precedent to every other football club ("well you let Derby off £20M, so we'll do the same thank you"). I think this is why the Gibbon and the EFL were both demanding to know what sort of arrangement Q had been discussing with HMRC. Any bidder will have to factor in some sort of payment plan with HMRC going forward over 2 (or 3 years). Keeping HMRC happy will allow the other creditors to be paid the 25% which avoids the 15-point penalty next season. Kirchner was talking about £50M including funding for the next 2 years. That wasn't enough (to also include PP). Investing in Derby County is not going to produce a quick return. People also seem to be ignoring what the EFL said in their Q&A with the Rams Trust last month. The 12-point deduction is just PART ONE of their punishment. The Business Plan which they impose on us for the next 2 or 3 years will be designed to really hamstring us. Look at Reading's - and they didn't go into administration (e.g. £6M cut in wage bill; 25-player limit; strict budgets; threat of 6-point deductions), so Wayne saying he wants to sign 40-players is not going to happen no matter how rich our new owner is. We need to be pragmatic. Keep the Faith and stay up this season. Get out of administration without further point penalties. Accept that we're going to lose the likes of Lawrence and Festy this summer. And just hope to keep our Championship status for the next 2 seasons whilst developing the youngsters and stabilising the club. That's the best way of ducking the EFL. Realistic dreams. ...and just hope that relegation doesn't drive the bidder(s) away. Wayne's 40 players comment included the academy and especially the under 23s. I suspect that he hadn’t given the actual figure too much thought but he’s going to have to sign, or re-sign, 19 players just to get to a first team squad of 25 presuming all those still contracted want to stay. We will probably never find out what the agreed business plan will be and Wassall probably makes most of the academy decisions but whatever division we are in someone is going to have to make the largest number of signings in a single window since transfer windows began. Probably. r_wilcockson and metalsheep02 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 6 minutes ago, Sparkle said: It won’t be as the MPs indicated MP's cant do a thing about it even though they like to think they can,they are just paying lip service to be seen as doing their best. Ram-Alf and jimtastic56 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackworthRamIsGod Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 Big week I feel, the admins told Rooney they hope to name a PB this week, I can't imagine they will get it wrong for the 48th time, 48th time lucky I reckon ? jimtastic56 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipleyRich Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 38 minutes ago, atherstoneram said: I would have thought insolvency practitioners are more aware of proceedings than lawyers. From the horses mouth...... https://www.quantuma.com/insights/rescuing-football-clubs-thing-past Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipleyRich Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 30 minutes ago, rammieib said: I believe an Agreement in Principle has been made with HMCR. Which could be settling the full bill (or high %) over a period of time? If so that could be a major stumbling block for any bidder. jimtastic56 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 1 hour ago, atherstoneram said: People keep going on that HMRC will get less if the club goes into liquidation,that won't bother HMRC, if the club wants to survive then they will have to pay all they owe. The bidders will be fully aware of that. The HMRC may come to some arrangement regarding a payment plan but it will be on their terms not the bidders. Surely they’ll “be bothered” if it means they get less? They may still decide to issue a warning to other clubs and allow Derby to go into liquidation rather than accept more by way of a CVA but it will bother them and won’t be an easy decision depending on how much they are being offered of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipleyRich Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 8 minutes ago, Tamworthram said: Surely they’ll “be bothered” if it means they get less? They may still decide to issue a warning to other clubs and allow Derby to go into liquidation rather than accept more by way of a CVA but it will bother them and won’t be an easy decision depending on how much they are being offered of course. Why do you think the rules were changed in favour of HMRC? It was to prevent exactly this, clubs going into administration and avoiding tax. Punish one club to the hilt and it stops it happening again. Read Quantumas own article. It clearly states they are due 100%. It may not have to be paid up in full to exit administration, but a formal agreement to settle up over an agreed period will. jimtastic56, Tamworthram and jono 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 2 minutes ago, Tamworthram said: Surely they’ll “be bothered” if it means they get less? They may still decide to issue a warning to other clubs and allow Derby to go into liquidation rather than accept more by way of a CVA but it will bother them and won’t be an easy decision depending on how much they are being offered of course. I haven't seen any other clubs offering support with our plight and it has now been raised in parliament,how do you think other owners will react if we were only to pay 25%. They will be getting on to their MP's wanting to know why HMRC have not pushed for the full amount as the rules have been changed specifically to prevent that. We have Several MP's backing us but that leaves over 640,many of whom have EFL clubs in their constituencies,what happens if they start raising the matter with HMRC. They won't give way to save the club if the majority complain. It became political when the issue was raised in parliament. jimtastic56 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 15 minutes ago, atherstoneram said: I haven't seen any other clubs offering support with our plight and it has now been raised in parliament,how do you think other owners will react if we were only to pay 25%. They will be getting on to their MP's wanting to know why HMRC have not pushed for the full amount as the rules have been changed specifically to prevent that. We have Several MP's backing us but that leaves over 640,many of whom have EFL clubs in their constituencies,what happens if they start raising the matter with HMRC. They won't give way to save the club if the majority complain. It became political when the issue was raised in parliament. Maybe you wouldn't accept 25% but who know what, if anything less than 100% they would accept? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 21 minutes ago, RipleyRich said: Why do you think the rules were changed in favour of HMRC? It was to prevent exactly this, clubs going into administration and avoiding tax. Punish one club to the hilt and it stops it happening again. Read Quantumas own article. It clearly states they are due 100%. It may not have to be paid up in full to exit administration, but a formal agreement to settle up over an agreed period will. I thought I had read that the rules had been changed to give HMRC priority over other creditors but still behind football creditors. HMRC still aren't happy that it could mean football creditors get 100% whilst they have to accept less but, I could well be wrong. Have there been any cases since the rules were changed or are we the First? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 3 minutes ago, Tamworthram said: Maybe you wouldn't accept 25% but who know what, if anything less than 100% they would accept? Only HMRC know but for everyone saying HMRC will accept what they are offered maybe living in hope. jimtastic56 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 1 minute ago, Tamworthram said: I thought I had read that the rules had been changed to give HMRC priority over other creditors but still behind football creditors. HMRC still aren't happy that it could mean football creditors get 100% whilst they have to accept less but, I could well be wrong. Have there been any cases since the rules were changed or are we the First? We are the First. jimtastic56 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 1 minute ago, atherstoneram said: Only HMRC know but for everyone saying HMRC will accept what they are offered maybe living in hope. Maybe some of us are just saying they "may" accept a lesser amount rather than they "will". In liquidation, after the administrator has been paid as well as football and secured creditors there isn't going to be much left for HMRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 Just now, Tamworthram said: Maybe some of us are just saying they "may" accept a lesser amount rather than they "will". In liquidation, after the administrator has been paid as well as football and secured creditors there isn't going to be much left for HMRC. So they could say we are insolvent and issue a winding up order. jono 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 5 minutes ago, atherstoneram said: We are the First. Oh dear. So we're the test case which could be bad. Having said that, the rule changes only moved HMRC above other trade creditors didn't it? It didn't change their ranking compared to football creditors did it? Have I got that wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 Quantuma should have just liquidated us on the spot when they first arrived then, because no one (and I really mean no one) is going to pay enough for a club in our state to pay HMRC in full. Nowhere near close. Morris paid ~£50m when we were a club on the edge of promotion to the prem, with a strong squad and owned the stadium. You're not going to pay more for a (borderline) League 1 club with no players and no stadium. jimtastic56 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Trav Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 What's really starting to confuse me is what's actually going on. Been told loads of times how everything's in place but were not seeing anything, and recently nothings coming out at all. First Mike Ashley was meant to be announced as PB then all of a sudden its cancelled. The admins are keeping silent and presumably not talking to the EFL as nothings coming out through journos etc. I appreciate a lot of people don't believe a word that I say but also appreciate that some do and I don't want to give any false hope. The only possible explanations I can give at the moment is that there's funding until the end of the season and we still don't know what league the club will be in. And as you would expect the price for a league 1 club is massively different to a championship club with a clean slate. Other than that i really struggle to understand what is happening. Admins are keeping their cards extremly close to their chests. jimtastic56, angieram and Dordogne-Ram 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 Just now, Tamworthram said: Oh dear. So we're the test case which could be bad. Having said that, the rule changes only moved HMRC above other trade creditors didn't it? It didn't change their ranking compared to football creditors did it? Have I got that wrong? You are correct,football creditors come First but it meant that HMRC can demand 100%. Now things have changed it seems liquidation is more likely than previous if new bidders aren't prepared to take the vast majority of debt on. jimtastic56 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 The last thing I'm going to say on the subject of HMRC debt is that I can see the argument for saying that HMRC will not compromise on receiving 100& of what they are due, but I believe they will. I'm sure everyone is rooting for me ? jimtastic56 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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