Mick Brolly Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 2 hours ago, Ewe Ram said: When I worked in HR people who drove company vehicles and lost their licence due to drunk driving were dismissed contractually. Keogh’s inability to stay sober and behave like the captain of a football team left him unable to do his job. Therefore I will forever dislike him for the legs action. Makes me really angry. Just out of interest what do you think of Lawrence who was driving while drunk and could have killed a family driving in the other direction do you stand applauding him still? r_wilcockson and atherstoneram 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Crewton said: Lawrence wasn't driving a company car. No but he caused an accident whilst under the influence which resulted in a Third party receiving injuries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 1 minute ago, atherstoneram said: The proper legal test would have been who caused the accident that resulted in Keoghs injuries. Or would Keogh have been injured if he'd worn a seat-belt. There's a bit of shared culpability there. It also appears that Keogh got his full contractual entitlement from DCFC whilst also earning ££s from MK and Huddersfield, so he ended up financially better off than he would have been if he'd worn a seatbelt. It's a tough old life... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, atherstoneram said: No but he caused an accident whilst under the influence which resulted in a Third party receiving injuries But Ewe Ram's post was about people being sacked for DD in a company car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 11 minutes ago, atherstoneram said: So Lawrence should have been dismissed then as he lost his licence due to drink driving Lawrence could have been sacked. That was within the range of reasonable responses by his employer for his conduct. As it was for Keogh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 Just now, Crewton said: Or would Keogh have been injured if he'd worn a seat-belt. There's a bit of shared culpability there. It also appears that Keogh got his full contractual entitlement from DCFC whilst also earning ££s from MK and Huddersfield, so he ended up financially better off than he would have been if he'd worn a seatbelt. It's a tough old life... I don't remember reading anywhere that Keogh wasn't wearing a seatbelt or even charged with such an offence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 11 minutes ago, atherstoneram said: The proper legal test would have been who caused the accident that resulted in Keoghs injuries. It's not relevant to Keogh's case whether it was within the range of reasonable responses for Derby to sack Lawernce. I Think it was, but that doesnt help Keogh. If both players breached their contracts then it is entirely up to their employer to decide what to do about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 1 minute ago, PistoldPete said: Lawrence could have been sacked. That was within the range of reasonable responses by his employer for his conduct. As it was for Keogh. And he should have but our previous owner thought he knew better than other people decided not to because the club was in a bad financial situation of his own making and he was worth something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 5 minutes ago, atherstoneram said: I don't remember reading anywhere that Keogh wasn't wearing a seatbelt or even charged with such an offence. That may be because the reasons for the tribunal's findings were not published. Unlike with proper employment tribunals. Crewton and Ewe Ram 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewe Ram Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 20 minutes ago, atherstoneram said: So Lawrence should have been dismissed then as he lost his licence due to drink driving But his job wasn’t driving was it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 1 minute ago, PistoldPete said: It's not relevant to Keogh's case whether it was within the range of reasonable responses for Derby to sack Lawernce. I Think it was, but that doesnt help Keogh. If both players breached their contracts then it is entirely up to their employer to decide what to do about that. Of course it is, Keoghs defence was that he was not the driver that caused his injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewe Ram Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 14 minutes ago, Mick Brolly said: Just out of interest what do you think of Lawrence who was driving while drunk and could have killed a family driving in the other direction do you stand applauding him still? In the context of ‘can he still perform his duties’ then yes he could/can. I think at the time I had a little sympathy with him as losing a parent at a young age is incredibly tough, I went through that myself and it took many years and therapy to get my head straight. I still don’t feel ok with it many years on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, PistoldPete said: That may be because the reasons for the tribunal's findings were not published. Unlike with proper employment tribunals. I am sure Derbyshire police would have made it public knowledge that he had not been wearing a seatbelt and would have charged him,the police seem rather keen on people not wearing seatbelts either as a driver or passenger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 Just now, atherstoneram said: And he should have but our previous owner thought he knew better than other people decided not to because the club was in a bad financial situation of his own making and he was worth something. Whether an employer is in a bad financial situation or not, when an employee breaks his contract the employer may be entitled to make a commercial decision whether it is in their interests to retain an employee or not, and to act accordingly. .I agree it could have adopted a moral position and decided that, whatever the financial situation, we should not retain someone who breaks the law as Lawrence did. But the employer does not have to do that , and there were extenuating circumstances in lawrence's case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 1 minute ago, PistoldPete said: Whether an employer is in a bad financial situation or not, when an employee breaks his contract the employer may be entitled to make a commercial decision whether it is in their interests to retain an employee or not, and to act accordingly. .I agree it could have adopted a moral position and decided that, whatever the financial situation, we should not retain someone who breaks the law as Lawrence did. But the employer does not have to do that , and there were extenuating circumstances in lawrence's case. No use talking about morals,it's the legal situation that matters not the financial situation and MM messed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 1 minute ago, atherstoneram said: I am sure Derbyshire police would have made it public knowledge that he had not been wearing a seatbelt and would have charged him,the police seem rather keen on people not wearing seatbelts either as a driver or passenger. You are sure Derbyshire police would have made it public knowledge despite not charging him? I am sure they wouldn't. Keogh had a big interview with the Guardian in which he claimed (wrongly i Think as photographic evidence shows) that he did not spend the evening with Tom Lawrence. He didn't mention that he was wearing a seatbelt depite many references to him not wearing one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Durden Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 14 minutes ago, PistoldPete said: That may be because the reasons for the tribunal's findings were not published. Unlike with proper employment tribunals. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/may/11/richard-keogh-awarded-more-than-2m-in-breach-of-contract-case-against-Derby An EFL statement read: “The LAC has heard and dismissed an appeal under the regulations of the EFL by Derby against the decision of the PRDC in the case of Richard Keogh. The PDRC held that Mr Keogh had not committed gross misconduct, that he had not brought the club into serious disrepute and that he had been wrongly dismissed by the club.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 11 minutes ago, Ewe Ram said: But his job wasn’t driving was it No it wasn't but he still caused injury to a Third party by causing an accident whilst DUI, Injuries serious enough that prevented the Third party from carrying out his employment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, atherstoneram said: No use talking about morals,it's the legal situation that matters not the financial situation and MM messed up. I think you were the one who mentioned the financial situation of the club. Nobody at the club messed up except for all the players involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/may/11/richard-keogh-awarded-more-than-2m-in-breach-of-contract-case-against-Derby An EFL statement read: “The LAC has heard and dismissed an appeal under the regulations of the EFL by Derby against the decision of the PRDC in the case of Richard Keogh. The PDRC held that Mr Keogh had not committed gross misconduct, that he had not brought the club into serious disrepute and that he had been wrongly dismissed by the club.” Yeah right. "EFL statement". Says it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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