Alan Nixon Breaks Silence on American Billionaire Bid

[jono]

On 27/12/2021 at 02:59, sunnyhill60 said:

So the Mods let this thread degenerate into a punfest - pages and pages of tripe which those seeking updates and info have to plough through.

Start a new section or better still a new forum for the clowns.

 

Most of the “tripe” is the BS speculation. Nothing is happening in public. So we are bored. When folk are bored they turn to humour. You should try it, it helps pass the time and is at least as useful as being a wannabe ITK / chartered accountant / HMRC commercial negotiating board member .. What will be will be .. meanwhile:

I have passed your comments to the clown phobia stasi who will be in touch regarding your unwarranted, exclusionary comment. This is not a news service. This is a chat between fans. If you want something else start a forum of your own or even better an investigative journalism service with results based subscriptions 

[i-Ram]

24 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Mate I’m Billy no mates 

Dave - to me and @DarkFruitsRam7you are our favourite uncle. Have a great 2022 buddy. Up the Rams.

[Ram-Alf]

16 minutes ago, jono said:

Most of the “tripe” is the BS speculation. Nothing is happening in public. So we are bored. When folk are bored they turn to humour. You should try it, it helps pass the time and is at least as useful as being a wannabe ITK / chartered accountant / HMRC commercial negotiating board member .. What will be will be .. meanwhile:

I have passed your comments to the clown phobia stasi who will be in touch regarding your unwarranted, exclusionary comment. This is not a news service. This is a chat between fans. If you want something else start a forum of your own or even better an investigative journalism service with results based subscriptions 

I can't wait for Good Friday...Fish will be on the menu.

[PistoldPete]

4 hours ago, i-Ram said:

How you see it is incorrect on a great many levels. I will work through it in order for you, so you stop posting misleading information as fact.

The stadium is owned by a company Gellaw Newco 202 Ltd. Gellaw Newco 202 Ltd has one director (guess who?) but that company is actually owned by Gellaw Newco 204 Ltd.  Gellaw Newco 204 Ltd has one director (guess who?) and the shares of the company are in control of one shareholder (l won’t ask you to guess, because I think you will know by now where it is going).

Both Gellaw Newco 202 Ltd and Gellaw Newco 204 Ltd have entered in to security arrangements with MSD on a third party basis. But it is the Football Club in Administration who owes MSD the debt that needs to be repaid (or refinanced or renegotiated at some stage). The Football Club is who has the loan and has also given a charge over its assets to MSD, independent of the security given to MSD by the two Gellaw Companies.

Neither of the Gellaw companies has transferred its ownership in the stadium to MSD under a fixed and floating charge. Yes MSD has an enforceable charge, but they haven’t enforced it. Indeed my understanding is that MSD have been prepared to advance a further sum to the Football Club in Administration in recent months, so I doubt very much that the advance is in current default. The stadium remains in the ownership of Gellaw Newco 202 Ltd, which in turn is ultimately in control of Mel Morris. I have checked these facts against Companies House and District Land Registry records today.

You say: so MSD has total and utter control over the stadium. If it is sold, where does the money go? No, not to MM. It goes to MSD and after that (I think this is right) it has to be used by the company to satisfy creditors, namely the club.  None of this statement is correct. Until MSD enforces it’s security Morris has some control albeit limited. He could however do a few things of importance. Gellaw Newco 202 Ltd could sell the stadium to another unconnected individual or company or to Morris or another company vehicle of Morris’s and MSD would surely agree if the outstanding loan was cleared as part of the sale. Why wouldn’t they? Such a transaction might see Gellaw Newco 202 Ltd sell the stadium at a premium (sale price less costs less MSD repayment). But none of that premium is available to the Football Club creditors. They are a completely different entity. They are not entitled to any of Gellaw’s assets - that is why those companies are not subject to the Administration process. Morris was clever to keep the Gellaw companies stadium owning operations disconnected from the Football Club’s trading operations.

Just one other thing which might be important to know. In Law the MSD debt should in the first place be repaid from any asset realisations of the Football Club. Only if there is a shortfall after that can they exercise a claim against the Gellaw Companies for any shortfall. Morris could waive those third party security rights if he wanted.

So in summary, Morris still ultimately owns the stadium, he still has an element of control and influence over the current administrative proceedings, and he could still own the stadium post administration (or dare I say liquidation). The bloke is a messer, indeed some say a proper duck job, but as matters stand whilst he has lost a load of cash with his gambles to date, he currently has some decent cards in his hands he could play if he wanted to recover at least some of his monies. How he plays his hand in the future we will see.
 

Ok I don't profess to understand all this.

But from what I read of Companies House documents  The legal charge that MSD has against the Rams is secured  against the Leasehold of PPS and other of the Rams assets. There is a separate legal charge that MSD has against Gellaw Cos is secured against   the Freehold of PPS and other assets of those Companies.

Anway you think CK is talking BS? Doesn't surprise me.

 

 

[Curtains]

1 hour ago, i-Ram said:

Dave - to me and @DarkFruitsRam7you are our favourite uncle. Have a great 2022 buddy. Up the Rams.

And you mate .

Told you all Stearman was good lol 

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, i-Ram said:

I changed my online persona to knowledgeable ******** in 2021, but you will be pleased to know affable clown is proposed for 2022. Hope no one confuses me with my mate Curtains.

Do you come as a pair? 

Or is your timing a bit off? 

[Curtains]

Is the  Moxey group still favorite.

We should hear very soon I hope.  

[i-Ram]

42 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

So the MSD deal is not in default ? Why does CK say it is, having spent weeks and weeks up to his elbows in Mel’s mess?  You say the fact MSD lent more shows it’s not in default ? What?!! The most common lenders into ongoing restructurings are existing lenders - for obvious reasons. They typically don’t waive their defaults before lending more, though that depends. 

I cannot speak for CK; I have no relationship with him, and don’t take too much notice of his Twitter ramblings. If you want to provide me with his comments on the MSD position I will happily consider them.
I suggested the MSD debt might not be in current default. MSD has apparently advanced further monies in recent months to the football club, and has in November registered a further charge on the stadium which is an asset of Gellaw 202. So it is clear to me that MSD are not currently enforcing their security over the stadium which is ultimately owned by Morris, which was my principle point. I suspect MSD have sufficient comfort that currently they can wait for the debt to be repaid either by Gellaw (after receiving any admin/liquidation proceeds from the Football Club), or from the sale of the stadium once/if they move to enforce their security.

if MSD were not satisfied they have control over the stadium, they would have put 202 into administration wouldn’t they? They would not take the risk of the club and PP being separated, because most (all?) buyers don’t want one without the other.  

The stadium and football club were separated long before Administrators took control, and indeed the debt with MSD was created. The stadium was bought by Gellaw 202 back in 2018. The sale was completed at arms length - it had to be to satisfy EFL rules - and there is no direct inter-company connection between the group of companies that form the Football club, and the two Gellaw entities. As I said above there probably is no urgency to for MSD to enforce its third party security over the stadium. They will let, indeed perhaps support, the Administrators for the time being to ensure an orderly transfer of ownership of the club, and an orderly repayment of the debt. If I was in MSD ‘s shoes I would like the debt to be repaid as part of any ownership change of the Football club, but that might not be essential to them. I would like any new owner of the Football Club to be able to also get control of the stadium, but that is by no means absolutely certain despite previous comments made by Morris and the Administrators. 

I’d also venture that if MM embarked on this far fetched scheme to redeem the MSD debt and run off with the stadium, MSD (who of course would be made aware of it) would immediately appoint admins to 202. To ensure no separation. 

This makes no sense whatsover. If Morris redeems the MSD debt (and ‘runs off with the stadium’) why would MSD care? Their debt is being redeemed. Why appoint administrators?  And again, to repeat, there has been separation of the football club and it’s stadium since 2018.

when you looked at the Land Registry entries, of course you would see 202 is registered owner. But did you not also see a bloody great legal charge registered in favour of MSD ? That’s the problem

I of course saw the legal charge. But I would venture most homeowners on this forum could look at their property on the Land Registry and see a charge registered against it by a lender. That’s not a problem. That’s the way of the world, and doesn’t change the fact that the registered owner owns the property, not the lender. You only fear the lender when they eventually say, sorry bud enough is enough, we are enforcing the security, and we want the keys. MSD are not at that point yet, and if/when they are I think Morris would make arrangements for the debt to be repaid rather than see an £80m asset handed over to a lender for a £25m debt.

No we don’t agree at all on this.

Ok

See above ? 

[PistoldPete]

28 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

See above ? 

Ok except I think what happened in November was a tidying up seperating the tow MSD charges between the Rams in admin and the Gellaw Companies. SO I wouldn't describe as a further charge against Gellaw. I think the Rams did draw down some extra funding from their facility around the same time. 

Also I don't know what the loan arrangement is between Gellaw and MSD. Is it separate from the loan the Rams have with MSD? are you sure the total loan is only £25 million? 

Edited December 28, 2021 by PistoldPete

[i-Ram]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

Ok I don't profess to understand all this.

But from what I read of Companies House documents  The legal charge that MSD has against the Rams is secured  against the Leasehold of PPS and other of the Rams assets. There is a separate legal charge that MSD has against Gellaw Cos is secured against   the Freehold of PPS and other assets of those Companies.

Anway you think CK is talking BS? Doesn't surprise me.

Correct. The MSD debt, all of the debt I would imagine, is with the football club group of companies, and they have the security of assets owned by the club. This is their direct security, and of limited value. They also have third party security from the Gellaw stadium owning group of companies, which is of more value to them. I suspect (I don’t know) that Mel Morris is likely to have given MSD a personal guarantee for the debt, which he has supported with the stadium assets within the (his) Gellaw group of companies.

I haven’t seen what CK has said recently other than suggesting Morris is ‘playing games and is a proper duck job’. He might not be BSIng on that.

5 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Ok except I think what happened in November was a tidying up seperating the tow MSD charges between the Rams in admin and the Gellaw Companies. SO I wouldn't describe as a further charge against Gellaw. I think the Rams did draw down some extra funding from their facility around the same time. 

Also I don't know what the loan arrangement is between Gellaw and MSD. Is it separate from the loan the Rams have with MSD? are you sure the total loan is only £25 million? 

I think I have answered the second paragraph above. But no I am not certain the debt is £25m, and couldn’t be bothered to check. But it must be around that figure. I can’t see Gellaw (effectively Morris) would ideally watch MSD ultimately take over ownership the stadium in full repayment of the debt. He will either want it himself so he retains some asset value with an annual rental stream, or so he has the asset in his possession so he can sell it, or gift it, to the future owners of the Football Club.

[kevinhectoring]

57 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

See above ? 

This is a 205 page thread ! I think we should agree to disagree and leave things where they are  

[i-Ram]

6 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

This is a 205 page thread ! I think we should agree to disagree and leave things where they are  

Happy to amicably disagree. My main point of posting was to stop you asserting that MSD are in control of the stadium, when it is clear, a matter of public record, that Morris still retains ownership and (restricted) control of PPS.

[kevinhectoring]

1 hour ago, i-Ram said:

Happy to amicably disagree. My main point of posting was to stop you asserting that MSD are in control of the stadium, when it is clear, a matter of public record, that Morris still retains ownership and (restricted) control of PPS.

Another confusing and squidgy post. Do you want to amicably disagree? Happy to do that despite the unseasonal venom in your earlier message. Or do you want to respond to the substantive points in my last post ? 

Edited December 28, 2021 by kevinhectoring

[i-Ram]

20 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

Another confusing and squidgy post. Do you want to amicably disagree? Happy to do that despite the unseasonal venom in your earlier message. Or do you want to respond to the substantive points in my last post ? 

I did respond fully. When I said see above ?I was pointing you to my response within the thread I had linked. For the avoidance of you not finding it, this is what I replied (my responses in bold):

———————————————————————————————————————-

So the MSD deal is not in default ? Why does CK say it is, having spent weeks and weeks up to his elbows in Mel’s mess?  You say the fact MSD lent more shows it’s not in default ? What?!! The most common lenders into ongoing restructurings are existing lenders - for obvious reasons. They typically don’t waive their defaults before lending more, though that depends. 

I cannot speak for CK; I have no relationship with him, and don’t take too much notice of his Twitter ramblings. If you want to provide me with his comments on the MSD position I will happily consider them.
I suggested the MSD debt might not be in current default. MSD has apparently advanced further monies in recent months to the football club, and has in November registered a further charge on the stadium which is an asset of Gellaw 202. So it is clear to me that MSD are not currently enforcing their security over the stadium which is ultimately owned by Morris, which was my principle point. I suspect MSD have sufficient comfort that currently they can wait for the debt to be repaid either by Gellaw (after receiving any admin/liquidation proceeds from the Football Club), or from the sale of the stadium once/if they move to enforce their security.

if MSD were not satisfied they have control over the stadium, they would have put 202 into administration wouldn’t they? They would not take the risk of the club and PP being separated, because most (all?) buyers don’t want one without the other.  

The stadium and football club were separated long before Administrators took control, and indeed the debt with MSD was created. The stadium was bought by Gellaw 202 back in 2018. The sale was completed at arms length - it had to be to satisfy EFL rules - and there is no direct inter-company connection between the group of companies that form the Football club, and the two Gellaw entities. As I said above there probably is no urgency to for MSD to enforce its third party security over the stadium. They will let, indeed perhaps support, the Administrators for the time being to ensure an orderly transfer of ownership of the club, and an orderly repayment of the debt. If I was in MSD ‘s shoes I would like the debt to be repaid as part of any ownership change of the Football club, but that might not be essential to them. I would like any new owner of the Football Club to be able to also get control of the stadium, but that is by no means absolutely certain despite previous comments made by Morris and the Administrators. 

I’d also venture that if MM embarked on this far fetched scheme to redeem the MSD debt and run off with the stadium, MSD (who of course would be made aware of it) would immediately appoint admins to 202. To ensure no separation. 

This makes no sense whatsover. If Morris redeems the MSD debt (and ‘runs off with the stadium’) why would MSD care? Their debt is being redeemed. Why appoint administrators?  And again, to repeat, there has been separation of the football club and it’s stadium since 2018.

when you looked at the Land Registry entries, of course you would see 202 is registered owner. But did you not also see a bloody great legal charge registered in favour of MSD ? That’s the problem

I of course saw the legal charge. But I would venture most homeowners on this forum could look at their property on the Land Registry and see a charge registered against it by a lender. That’s not a problem. That’s the way of the world, and doesn’t change the fact that the registered owner owns the property, not the lender. You only fear the lender when they eventually say, sorry bud enough is enough, we are enforcing the security, and we want the keys. MSD are not at that point yet, and if/when they are I think Morris would make arrangements for the debt to be repaid rather than see an £80m asset handed over to a lender for a £25m debt.

No we don’t agree at all on this.

Ok

[Barney1991]

looks the Appleby group includes Steve Morgan in the backers who is former chairman of wolves and friends with money 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Barney1991

[MackworthRamIsGod]

42 minutes ago, Barney1991 said:

looks the Appleby group includes Steve Morgan in the backers who is former chairman of wolves and friends with money 

So I was right then ?

[kevinhectoring]

47 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

I did respond fully. When I said see above ?I was pointing you to my response within the thread I had linked. For the avoidance of you not finding it, this is what I replied (my responses in bold):

———————————————————————————————————————-

So the MSD deal is not in default ? Why does CK say it is, having spent weeks and weeks up to his elbows in Mel’s mess?  You say the fact MSD lent more shows it’s not in default ? What?!! The most common lenders into ongoing restructurings are existing lenders - for obvious reasons. They typically don’t waive their defaults before lending more, though that depends. 

I cannot speak for CK; I have no relationship with him, and don’t take too much notice of his Twitter ramblings. If you want to provide me with his comments on the MSD position I will happily consider them.
I suggested the MSD debt might not be in current default. MSD has apparently advanced further monies in recent months to the football club, and has in November registered a further charge on the stadium which is an asset of Gellaw 202. So it is clear to me that MSD are not currently enforcing their security over the stadium which is ultimately owned by Morris, which was my principle point. I suspect MSD have sufficient comfort that currently they can wait for the debt to be repaid either by Gellaw (after receiving any admin/liquidation proceeds from the Football Club), or from the sale of the stadium once/if they move to enforce their security.

if MSD were not satisfied they have control over the stadium, they would have put 202 into administration wouldn’t they? They would not take the risk of the club and PP being separated, because most (all?) buyers don’t want one without the other.  

The stadium and football club were separated long before Administrators took control, and indeed the debt with MSD was created. The stadium was bought by Gellaw 202 back in 2018. The sale was completed at arms length - it had to be to satisfy EFL rules - and there is no direct inter-company connection between the group of companies that form the Football club, and the two Gellaw entities. As I said above there probably is no urgency to for MSD to enforce its third party security over the stadium. They will let, indeed perhaps support, the Administrators for the time being to ensure an orderly transfer of ownership of the club, and an orderly repayment of the debt. If I was in MSD ‘s shoes I would like the debt to be repaid as part of any ownership change of the Football club, but that might not be essential to them. I would like any new owner of the Football Club to be able to also get control of the stadium, but that is by no means absolutely certain despite previous comments made by Morris and the Administrators. 

I’d also venture that if MM embarked on this far fetched scheme to redeem the MSD debt and run off with the stadium, MSD (who of course would be made aware of it) would immediately appoint admins to 202. To ensure no separation. 

This makes no sense whatsover. If Morris redeems the MSD debt (and ‘runs off with the stadium’) why would MSD care? Their debt is being redeemed. Why appoint administrators?  And again, to repeat, there has been separation of the football club and it’s stadium since 2018.

when you looked at the Land Registry entries, of course you would see 202 is registered owner. But did you not also see a bloody great legal charge registered in favour of MSD ? That’s the problem

I of course saw the legal charge. But I would venture most homeowners on this forum could look at their property on the Land Registry and see a charge registered against it by a lender. That’s not a problem. That’s the way of the world, and doesn’t change the fact that the registered owner owns the property, not the lender. You only fear the lender when they eventually say, sorry bud enough is enough, we are enforcing the security, and we want the keys. MSD are not at that point yet, and if/when they are I think Morris would make arrangements for the debt to be repaid rather than see an £80m asset handed over to a lender for a £25m debt.

No we don’t agree at all on this.

Ok

Thanks for attaching this - apologies I had not seen it before. 
Judging from your responses I’ve not been very clear.  I’ll try another tack :

When the administrators were appointed there was much anxiety about the stadium, and who controlled it. One of the first things the admins assured us was that the club would be sold with the stadium. They don’t say these things lightly and we know they have nothing in writing from MM. Before giving this assurance, they doubtless asked their learned lawyers whether they and MSD controlled it. The answer was obviously yes. Or they wouldn’t have said what they did 

[May Contain Nuts]

2 hours ago, Barney1991 said:

looks the Appleby group includes Steve Morgan in the backers who is former chairman of wolves and friends with money 

Being friends with money is a promising sign, won't get far without it!

[Ram-Alf]

5 hours ago, Coconut's Beard said:

Being friends with money is a promising sign, won't get far without it!

Not too promising really tho.

[PistoldPete]

11 hours ago, i-Ram said:

Correct. The MSD debt, all of the debt I would imagine, is with the football club group of companies, and they have the security of assets owned by the club. This is their direct security, and of limited value. They also have third party security from the Gellaw stadium owning group of companies, which is of more value to them. I suspect (I don’t know) that Mel Morris is likely to have given MSD a personal guarantee for the debt, which he has supported with the stadium assets within the (his) Gellaw group of companies.

I haven’t seen what CK has said recently other than suggesting Morris is ‘playing games and is a proper duck job’. He might not be BSIng on that.

I think I have answered the second paragraph above. But no I am not certain the debt is £25m, and couldn’t be bothered to check. But it must be around that figure. I can’t see Gellaw (effectively Morris) would ideally watch MSD ultimately take over ownership the stadium in full repayment of the debt. He will either want it himself so he retains some asset value with an annual rental stream, or so he has the asset in his possession so he can sell it, or gift it, to the future owners of the Football Club.

Thanks. Problem is all we have to go on is the legal charges lodged at Companies house  .. we don't have all the other loan documents they relate to. From that I noticed the "Rams Investment" loan to Gellaw in 2019.. the Rams themselves were not a party to that. That was discharged later (tidied up in 2021) , I think it was replaced by the MSD loan in 2020, at which time the Rams themselves also had an MSD legal charge against them. SO to me that suggests that Mel had borrowed money to help with the financing of the PPS purchase. And that borrowed money is on top of the money that the Rams have drawn down on since 2020.

That's how i read it , but I could be wrong, as i say we don't have much to go on.