Academy Thread 21/22

[Jubbs]

 Assisted their goal in a 6-1 defeat.

[Foreveram]

Stretton on the bench for Scotland u21 v Denmark

[Foreveram]

Stretton unused sub. Scotland lose 0-1

[RoyMac5]

 

[Ghost of Clough]

47 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

 

Live on RamsTV too!

[Carl Sagan]

What are the implications for the Academy that none of the U23 team currently has any prospect of progressing to the first team? And I wonder at what stage does Dylan Williams cease to be eligible for matches?

Will they be prepared to wait and bide their time, or are we expecting a mass exodus in January? My understanding from the EFL pronouncements is that they intend to do their darnedest to keep us under embargo until the end of next season, which would mean no one can come through until after then. It seems to me to be part of the EFL's plan to destroy the club by destroying the Academy pipeline.

[Ghost of Clough]

Williams would count towards the current quota as soon as he signs a professional contract.

Implications would depend on the terms of the embargo at the time... Hard (23 man squad as we currently have it) or soft (U21s don't count).

If hard (most likely option for the time being), we have 2 options.

1. Sell to buy

2. Go all in on the youngsters and play them when needed.

Excluding Bielik... Marshall, McDonald, JBrown, Watson and Hutchinson have contributed the least so far this season and would likely be the ones at the front of the queue to be offloaded if we do want to recruit.

Option 2 becomes reality when we're almost certainly going down to L1, but we'd end up selling a few more senior players first anyway.

U23s not currently part of the quota, and closest to the first team are: Cashin and LThompson (and Wilson when he recovers from injury). For us to use Cashin, it means Jagielika, Davies, Stesrman, Forsyth and Bielik are all out injured. For LThompson to come in, 3 of Bird, Knight, Shinnie and Bielik would have to be injured. Even then we still have Morrison, Watson and Hutchinson who could do a job in the DM/CM position.

[Macintosh]

I was chatting to my friend who works for Brighton, and they have a novel way of bringing through their youngsters by having a mentor, a wise head that plays in the games and has experience to pass on. The Brighton academy is seen as one of the best in the world right now, Ben White, Jayson Molumby, Aaron Connolly, Robert Sanchez, Max Sanders, Steven Alzate, and Christian Walton, along with Lewis Dunk and Solly March.

Imagine if Curtis Davies, Craig Forsyth or Tom Huddlestone was that player, or if a Darren Bent had passed on his goalscoring knowledge to the younger lads coming through instead of donning a suit to become a TV pundit for Sky? No one will have heard of Andrew Crofts, but he is one of three over-age outfield players they employ. It seems to be working and maybe we should take note?

[Crewton]

I've read about Brighton using overage players as mentors in the u23 team and it seems like a good idea, though I'd question the claim of "one of the best academies in the world" on the basis of the players listed! 

[Macintosh]

59 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I've read about Brighton using overage players as mentors in the u23 team and it seems like a good idea, though I'd question the claim of "one of the best academies in the world" on the basis of the players listed! 

World-class then. They have the largest percentage of players given first-team football in the PL, employed by the club for at least three seasons from the ages of 15 to 21. Wait until you see Evan Ferguson, 16 in a season or two.

They can't take credit for Yves Bissouma development, especially after this weekend's exploits.

 

 

[Ravabeerbelly]

Especially when several of those listed weren’t even real academy products as such!

Ben White was at Southampton until he was 16, had two years in the 18s, 1 in the 23s and was then loaned out to Newport, Peterborough and then Leeds on season long loans which arguably had more input into the end product than the academy?

Jayson Molumby and Aaron Connelly didn’t join BHA until they became scholars having come from Ireland. 

Steven Alzate came through the Leyton Orient academy before joining BHA at 19 and going back on loan at Orient and later Swindon. 

Robert Sanchez joined from Levante at 17 although he then had 3/4 seasons in BHA before loans to Forest Green and Rochdale.

Christian Walton came through Plymouth’s academy and has since had a million loans but only made three appearances for BHA.

Solly March didn’t join BHA until he was an U19 and was picked up through the English Independant schools (ISFA) and non league Lewes. Interestingly Solly had trialled at BHA as an U14 and wasn’t successful. 
 

So Max Sanders who never made a league appearance before being sold to Lincoln and Lewis Dunk who is so old he wasn’t even in the academy when it was an academy (it was a Centre of Excellence) are the only two who have really come through the entire academy programme.

BHA actually do have a fantastic academy (although one of the best in the world may be a stretch!) they are a very progressive club and they use the loan system very well to develop their players and are enjoying real success at 18s and 23s now.

Strangely a player who did do the entire academy programme (9-18s) at BHA and could claim to be an ‘academy product’ (although never making an appearance for them) but has gone on to make a fair few FL appearances is….Isaac Hutchinson! 

Funny ol game Saint !

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, Macintosh said:

Ben White, Jayson Molumby, Aaron Connolly, Robert Sanchez, Max Sanders, Steven Alzate, and Christian Walton, along with Lewis Dunk and Solly March.

White, Dunk and Sanchez are very good PL players but I think it's a bit of a stretch to call their academy world class.

Sanders (22) is struggling to get into a L1 side. Alzate (signed aged 19, now 23) is just a PL squad player. March and Connolly onoy squad players too. Walton (25) had a couple of seasons in the Championship but now can't even get into a L1 side. Molumby (22) has had a couple of seasons now as a Championship squad player.

[Ravabeerbelly]

Similar sentiments to mine GoC but it is a little harsh to call March a squad player…the average age of a debut in the premier league is 23 and he’s 27 with over 100 PL games under his belt while BHA have only been a PL club for 4 years….in that time he’s also had two ACLs which have probably robbed him of 2 x half seasons….

I do think sometimes we write players off as running out of time at 22/23 (molumby / sanders for example) when really we are seeing players here, at 18/19/20, who are probably getting regular games due to circumstances more than anything else…anything before 23 is all about experience and getting minutes in your CV after that it’s time to see where you’re at in terms of being or being close to a finished article.

[Macintosh]

11 minutes ago, Ravabeerbelly said:

Especially when several of those listed weren’t even real academy products as such!

Ben White was at Southampton until he was 16, had two years in the 18s, 1 in the 23s and was then loaned out to Newport, Peterborough and then Leeds on season long loans which arguably had more input into the end product than the academy?

Jayson Molumby and Aaron Connelly didn’t join BHA until they became scholars having come from Ireland. 

Steven Alzate came through the Leyton Orient academy before joining BHA at 19 and going back on loan at Orient and later Swindon. 

 

 

If joined from Levante at 17 although he then had 3/4 seasons in BHA before loans to Forest Green and Rochdale.

Christian Walton came through Plymouth’s academy and has since had a million loans but only made three appearances for BHA.

Solly March didn’t join BHA until he was an U19 and was picked up through the English Independant schools (ISFA) and non league Lewes. Interestingly Solly had trialled at BHA as an U14 and wasn’t successful. 
 

So Max Sanders who never made a league appearance before being sold to Lincoln and Lewis Dunk who is so old he wasn’t even in the academy when it was an academy (it was a Centre of Excellence) are the only two who have really come through the entire academy programme.

BHA actually do have a fantastic academy (although one of the best in the world may be a stretch!) they are a very progressive club and they use the loan system very well to develop their players and are enjoying real success at 18s and 23s now.

Strangely a player who did do the entire academy programme (9-18s) at BHA and could claim to be an ‘academy product’ (although never making an appearance for them) but has gone on to make a fair few FL appearances is….Isaac Hutchinson! 

Funny ol game Saint !

Under that detailed analysis Derby did not develop Will Hughes, that was Mickleover Jubilee and Notts Forest. Similar with Tom Huddlestone. Bogle's rise and departure is down to Swindon Town, Ebosele is thanks to Bray Wanderers, Lowe's loan to Aberdeen and Shrewsbury, Knight because of Cabinteely!

Brighton have a two-year cycle with the academy, if they don't progress to the next age group they are released. 

[Ravabeerbelly]

5 minutes ago, Macintosh said:

Under that detailed analysis Derby did not develop Will Hughes, that was Mickleover Jubilee and Notts Forest. Similar with Tom Huddlestone. Bogle's rise and departure is down to Swindon Town, Ebosele is thanks to Bray Wanderers, Lowe's loan to Aberdeen and Shrewsbury, Knight because of Cabinteely!

Brighton have a two-year cycle with the academy, if they don't progress to the next age group they are released. 

But no ones suggesting Derby have one of the worlds best academies or listing players that didn’t come through it as success stories ?‍♂️

[Carl Sagan]

11 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Williams would count towards the current quota as soon as he signs a professional contract.

Implications would depend on the terms of the embargo at the time... Hard (23 man squad as we currently have it) or soft (U21s don't count).

If hard (most likely option for the time being), we have 2 options.

1. Sell to buy

2. Go all in on the youngsters and play them when needed.

Excluding Bielik... Marshall, McDonald, JBrown, Watson and Hutchinson have contributed the least so far this season and would likely be the ones at the front of the queue to be offloaded if we do want to recruit.

Option 2 becomes reality when we're almost certainly going down to L1, but we'd end up selling a few more senior players first anyway.

U23s not currently part of the quota, and closest to the first team are: Cashin and LThompson (and Wilson when he recovers from injury). For us to use Cashin, it means Jagielika, Davies, Stesrman, Forsyth and Bielik are all out injured. For LThompson to come in, 3 of Bird, Knight, Shinnie and Bielik would have to be injured. Even then we still have Morrison, Watson and Hutchinson who could do a job in the DM/CM position.

Thanks for the run down. Presumably in this case it means for the foreseeable future at the club, Williams *cannot* sign a professional contract. Which has implications for him and the club.

We don't quite have a hard 23 embargo right now. It's a hard 25 because of the injuries to Bielik and CKR, but they will be fit to play around the opening of the window and I don't see the EFL extending that anyone, meaning we'll lose Jagielka and Baldock unless we've sold at least 2 other players. My guess is Bielik and Jozwiak will be first to leave if administrators are still in place.

January will come round quickly. Will it be clear at that point if the embargo will persist? If there is the possibility a hard embargo will last through summer 22 it means none of the U23s can play first team football so surely some such as Cashin and Thompson will look too move on. If we have new owners through the door and there's a chance of keeping us up, as you say Marshall, McDonald, JBrown, Watson and Hutchinson would all be likely have contracts terminated to bring in new players if we can, but the EFL is insisting on approving the business plan so likely will not let us buy, even if the money is there. It's such a mess.

 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

2 hours ago, Macintosh said:

I was chatting to my friend who works for Brighton, and they have a novel way of bringing through their youngsters by having a mentor, a wise head that plays in the games and has experience to pass on. The Brighton academy is seen as one of the best in the world right now, Ben White, Jayson Molumby, Aaron Connolly, Robert Sanchez, Max Sanders, Steven Alzate, and Christian Walton, along with Lewis Dunk and Solly March.

Imagine if Curtis Davies, Craig Forsyth or Tom Huddlestone was that player, or if a Darren Bent had passed on his goalscoring knowledge to the younger lads coming through instead of donning a suit to become a TV pundit for Sky? No one will have heard of Andrew Crofts, but he is one of three over-age outfield players they employ. It seems to be working and maybe we should take note?

This is basically what used to happen prior to academies and they were just reserve teams,  those older players not starting would turn out for the reserves with the youngsters and shout out them a lot and push them around physically.  It has merits for when they step up.

[angieram]

I think Chris Martin was excellent when he was in under 23s, worked really hard with young players. Likewise Fozzy on his road to recovery.

Anya and Thorne ' looked ' like they'd rather be elsewhere. 

Obviously not ideal to have your high earners sitting in under 23s so this idea of an "almost"player who can stay there for the longer term is a good one. 

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, Macintosh said:

Under that detailed analysis Derby did not develop Will Hughes, that was Mickleover Jubilee and Notts Forest. Similar with Tom Huddlestone. Bogle's rise and departure is down to Swindon Town, Ebosele is thanks to Bray Wanderers, Lowe's loan to Aberdeen and Shrewsbury, Knight because of Cabinteely!

Brighton have a two-year cycle with the academy, if they don't progress to the next age group they are released. 

No-one is claiming Derby's academy is one of "the best in the world" though. 

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, Carl Sagan said:

Thanks for the run down. Presumably in this case it means for the foreseeable future at the club, Williams *cannot* sign a professional contract. Which has implications for him and the club.

We don't quite have a hard 23 embargo right now. It's a hard 25 because of the injuries to Bielik and CKR, but they will be fit to play around the opening of the window and I don't see the EFL extending that anyone, meaning we'll lose Jagielka and Baldock unless we've sold at least 2 other players. My guess is Bielik and Jozwiak will be first to leave if administrators are still in place.

January will come round quickly. Will it be clear at that point if the embargo will persist? If there is the possibility a hard embargo will last through summer 22 it means none of the U23s can play first team football so surely some such as Cashin and Thompson will look too move on. If we have new owners through the door and there's a chance of keeping us up, as you say Marshall, McDonald, JBrown, Watson and Hutchinson would all be likely have contracts terminated to bring in new players if we can, but the EFL is insisting on approving the business plan so likely will not let us buy, even if the money is there. It's such a mess.

 

You can extend existing contracts under embargo, you just can't sign new players. So Baldock and Jagielka should be able to stay with us for the rest of the season as long as wages are below the limit.

It'll be interesting to see which route we take if we're still under embargo next summer. Only Bielik, Bird, Knight, Sibley and Jozwiak who are contracted beyond that.