What's wrong?

[twinthe_12]

Why is it Derby are playing so dull and slow? 

It's because of Cocu's way of thinking football. 

Like Van Grall at Manch. United they want go keep the ball and to do that the build the play up very slowly with lots of passes siteways and often through the goolkeeper. By doing that the defenders have to be able to pass the ball and got ability to drible and play the ball up to the midfield. 

When Derby try to do that especially Clarke lose the ball in the buildup play all to often in our own half and then the other team are able to catch us out and go straight on our gool -  before our defenders have been able to pass the ball further up. 

Cocu needs to change that. 

If you look at our game play at U23 and U18 you'll see a much faster ballplay and a more direct play - and press the other teams buildup, but Cocu change that when our young players go to play in the first team. 

That's a problem because.Tthry are not used to play and think like that. 

Even Rooney has to accept that because his style of play has never been like that. So we see a lot of play siteways in our own half and it's so easy to play against - you just have to go further up field to make a more direct press play. 

Allmost all our gools we have concied this and the last 10 games of last season has accured because of this. 

Remember when we got Steve McClaren as manager or coach we never played like that - he created fast and entertaining ballplay as you probably remember. 

 

[Jram]

1 minute ago, twinthe_12 said:

Why is it Derby are playing so dull and slow? 

It's because of Cocu's way of thinking football. 

Like Van Grall at Manch. United they want go keep the ball and to do that the build the play up very slowly with lots of passes siteways and often through the goolkeeper. By doing that the defenders have to be able to pass the ball and got ability to drible and play the ball up to the midfield. 

When Derby try to do that especially Clarke lose the ball in the buildup play all to often in our own half and then the other team are able to catch us out and go straight on our gool -  before our defenders have been able to pass the ball further up. 

Cocu needs to change that. 

If you look at our game play at U23 and U18 you'll see a much faster ballplay and a more direct play - and press the other teams buildup, but Cocu change that when our young players go to play in the first team. 

That's a problem because.Tthry are not used to play and think like that. 

Even Rooney has to accept that because his style of play has never been like that. So we see a lot of play siteways in our own half and it's so easy to play against - you just have to go further up field to make a more direct press play. 

Allmost all our gools we have concied this and the last 10 games of last season has accured because of this. 

Remember when we got Steve McClaren as manager or coach we never played like that - he created fast and entertaining ballplay as you probably remember. 

 

“Straight on our gool” made me laugh for some reason 

I’m not concerned. Out of necessity we’re playing a lot of youth which, inevitably, aren’t as good yet 

I’m sure it will improve but maybe not that much. Reasonable to expect a mid table finish this season and a few dull performances 

[sage]

it's because all of our attacking/creative players are sold, injured, recovering from injury, inexperienced or so bad they haven't been given a squad number. 

[EulogyForEvolution]

We don't have enough quality attacking players.

And the attacking players on our books who carry a goal threat have been injured. 

That has resulted in a lack of attacking movement, which has pushed us deeper, and left the players up top isolated.

Imagine that McClaren team if Russell, Ward and Martin were injured or missing. 

Now add Jozwiak, Ibe (maybe), Lawrence and Waggy to our current team. Maybe a new striker too. 

The goals will come and the pressure on the back and centre mids will be relieved. 

[sage]

10 minutes ago, EulogyForEvolution said:

We don't have enough quality attacking players.

And the attacking players on our books who carry a goal threat have been injured. 

That has resulted in a lack of attacking movement, which has pushed us deeper, and left the players up top isolated.

Imagine that McClaren team if Russell, Ward and Martin were injured or missing. 

Now add Jozwiak, Ibe (maybe), Lawrence and Waggy to our current team. Maybe a new striker too. 

The goals will come and the pressure on the back and centre mids will be relieved. 

We don't have to. It happened. 1st in Feb, 8th in May. 

[RamNut]

I didn’t think we played the slow, ponderous stuff v Preston. Evans came in for bird, and we seemed to move the ball forward with more purpose. 

but generally You are correct, we have watched far too much of that slow, boring, football and you are also probably correct that there is a Dutch influence to it. that style of play has not fared well in England. There hasn’t yet been a successful Dutch manager - Koeman, van gaal, de boer, meulensteen etc. Martin Jol was probably the best, but he had played his football in England and maybe that helped. 
 

when we’re 2-0 up and seeing out the game I don’t mind it. But when the clock is ticking and we need to attack it drives me crackers. I think we risk ruining max bird. He needs a software edit and a reload to fix the bugs that have affected his game. 

[EulogyForEvolution]

14 minutes ago, sage said:

We don't have to. It happened. 1st in Feb, 8th in May. 

I had erased that from my memory. 

[IslandExile]

1 hour ago, twinthe_12 said:

If you look at our game play at U23 and U18 you'll see a much faster ballplay and a more direct play - and press the other teams buildup, but Cocu change that when our young players go to play in the first team. 

I'd remind you that the u-18s and u-23s are playing in a formation and style set by Cocu. The idea being that it will then be easier for them when they stop up to the next level.

[CBRammette]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Jimbo Ram]

1 hour ago, EulogyForEvolution said:

We don't have enough quality attacking players.

And the attacking players on our books who carry a goal threat have been injured. 

That has resulted in a lack of attacking movement, which has pushed us deeper, and left the players up top isolated.

Imagine that McClaren team if Russell, Ward and Martin were injured or missing. 

Now add Jozwiak, Ibe (maybe), Lawrence and Waggy to our current team. Maybe a new striker too. 

The goals will come and the pressure on the back and centre mids will be relieved. 

Agree...why I am surprised some are suggesting we sell Lawrence...

[Parsnip]

1 hour ago, RamNut said:

There hasn’t yet been a successful Dutch manager - Koeman, van gaal, de boer, meulensteen etc. Martin Jol was probably the best, but he had played his football in England and maybe that helped. 

So are you suggesting that we should've gone with a Dutch manager who has experience of playing football in England instead of Cocu (pictured below)?

I can't think of anyone.

[Rammy03]

13 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

I'd remind you that the u-18s and u-23s are playing in a formation and style set by Cocu

u18 won the premier league and got into Europe before he even arrived

[Rammy03]

1 hour ago, twinthe_12 said:

Why is it Derby are playing so dull and slow? 

It's because of Cocu's way of thinking football. 

Like Van Grall at Manch. United they want go keep the ball and to do that the build the play up very slowly with lots of passes siteways and often through the goolkeeper. By doing that the defenders have to be able to pass the ball and got ability to drible and play the ball up to the midfield. 

When Derby try to do that especially Clarke lose the ball in the buildup play all to often in our own half and then the other team are able to catch us out and go straight on our gool -  before our defenders have been able to pass the ball further up. 

Cocu needs to change that. 

If you look at our game play at U23 and U18 you'll see a much faster ballplay and a more direct play - and press the other teams buildup, but Cocu change that when our young players go to play in the first team. 

That's a problem because.Tthry are not used to play and think like that. 

Even Rooney has to accept that because his style of play has never been like that. So we see a lot of play siteways in our own half and it's so easy to play against - you just have to go further up field to make a more direct press play. 

Allmost all our gools we have concied this and the last 10 games of last season has accured because of this. 

Remember when we got Steve McClaren as manager or coach we never played like that - he created fast and entertaining ballplay as you probably remember. 

I do think there's something in what you're saying. Why do we always look to move the ball slowly from side to side in front of the opposition and not get in behind the defence with pace? Marriott is on the pitch and that's his game. As you say when the young lads play for U18 and U23 they play direct moving the ball with speed yet when they play in the first team it's ponderous. This is down to how the manager sets the team up without doubt. The only argument is the lack of quality in the side at the moment. The issues are half systemic and half personnel for me. When our injured players return and new signings come into the side, I expect it to improve significantly. If we're still boring and slow, questions will need to be asked of the manager for sure.

[RamNut]

20 minutes ago, Beetroot said:

So are you suggesting that we should've gone with a Dutch manager who has experience of playing football in England instead of Cocu (pictured below)?

I can't think of anyone.

You might be onto something there! 

?

 

[Inverurie Ram]

Absolutely nothing except our whinging so called supporters on here.........and Chris Martin scoring for Bristol City!

[May Contain Nuts]

If you're a ball playing defender you need to trust when you play it into your midfielders or forwards that they'll be able to look after the ball and not lose it within seconds as a result of a poor touch, being too weak in possession or through bad decision making.

You need to know that the ball won't be coming back towards you with pace and an onslaught of opposition players before you can get yourself back in position, especially if you're not blessed with the pace of someone like Tomori.

Without that trust and confidence you're far less likely to play the adventurous pass, you may see it but weigh up the pros and cons and decide that it isn't worth the risk. You'll have 2nd thoughts, but 2nd thoughts can lead to 3rd thoughts, which lead to the opposition closing you down... before you know it you're rushed into making a poor pass and losing the ball yourself.

Our lack of quality, lack of experience and inconsistency in attacking areas make the above scenario one we've faced pretty often. 

 

 

[Millenniumram]

I don’t think the style of play in principle is a problem. Playing controlled, possession based football has been successful many times before - both in Europe, and in English football. Personally I quite like it, provided it’s done correctly - much rather see us controlling the play with the ball, instead of chasing the opposition for 90 minutes. Think it’s more conducive to long term success as well.

The problem we have at the moment is the application. The crucial point is, as the OP suggests, that we are simply too slow. Both physically and mentally. Faster, better quality wingers will help alleviate the problems, but they won’t solve everything. What we really need to do, is drastically up the tempo of our play. There’s nothing wrong with playing out the back, but done too slowly it becomes very easy to counter. Sometimes you see our players holding onto the ball for 5-10 seconds, looking for an option to pass to. You simply can’t be doing that, you’ll be boxed in and you’ll never break the opposition defence down. Way too easy to play against.

A couple of things need to happen to solve the problem. First of all, the play receiving the ball needs to be more aware of his surroundings, and know his next pass before he even gets the ball. Two touches is the maximum one player should be taking before moving the ball on. That way we beat the press, and get upfield quickly enough to break the opposition defence down. Secondly, in order to allow the first point to happen, the other players need to be moving much more than they are currently. We are way too static at the moment - anyone not currently with the ball needs to be getting into a position where they can receive the ball and do something with it. It’s basic stuff really, but it all comes down to effort and energy. We haven’t seen enough so far.

The manager isn’t blameless either. Cocu often sets up quite negatively, which serves to draw more attention to the priestly mentioned flaws. Setting up too deep means we have few forward options to pass to, and leads to us passing around the back for too long. Playing too many defensively minded players means we struggle to pass out the back altogether and concede possession - players like Forsyth don’t really suit this style of play. As I’ve said before, both the players and the manager have to braver and more attack minded if we’re going to succeed this season.

[Sparkle]

Cocu wants to play the ball out from the back and progress with it but unfortunately we tend to pass it side to side until we eventually find the opposition player to give him a clear sight on our goal - we need strength and speed in the forward areas to give players some decent options 

[Van der MoodHoover]

42 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

The manager isn’t blameless either. Cocu often sets up quite negatively, which serves to draw more attention to the priestly mentioned flaws. Setting up too deep means we have few forward options to pass to, and leads to us passing around the back for too long. Playing too many defensively minded players means we struggle to pass out the back altogether and concede possession - players like Forsyth don’t really suit this style of play. As I’ve said before, both the players and the manager have to braver and more attack minded if we’re going to succeed this season.

weve certainly got into some bad habits......

 

......oh sorry, got confused with Gary Monk.

 

Cassocks!??

[LeedsCityRam]

3 hours ago, RamNut said:

I didn’t think we played the slow, ponderous stuff v Preston. Evans came in for bird, and we seemed to move the ball forward with more purpose. 

but generally You are correct, we have watched far too much of that slow, boring, football and you are also probably correct that there is a Dutch influence to it. that style of play has not fared well in England. There hasn’t yet been a successful Dutch manager - Koeman, van gaal, de boer, meulensteen etc. Martin Jol was probably the best, but he had played his football in England and maybe that helped. 
 

when we’re 2-0 up and seeing out the game I don’t mind it. But when the clock is ticking and we need to attack it drives me crackers. I think we risk ruining max bird. He needs a software edit and a reload to fix the bugs that have affected his game. 

I dont believe Max Bird's regression is a consequence of Cocu's style. He came into the side looking to be proactive & forward thinking in his passing...surely if that was his outlook & Cocu didnt want that, he'd have been replaced with someone more conservative?

Cocu named Bird in his post match interview on Saturday when bemoaning the lack of bravery on the ball. He then dropped him last night. Also, Evans was very ordinary on the ball last night...his best bits were whilst defending, as thats what he is really is.

On the point of Dutch coaching styles making for 'boring' football, its acknowledged by McClaren himself that his style of play (and use of 4-3-3) was highly influenced by his time coaching in Holland. I also dont recall ever watching boring Dutch national sides & even their club sides (particularly Ajax) have always been a decent watch.