Cocu at PSV

[Big Trav]

So while lockdown has restricted me I decided to watch some of cocus title winning PSV sides. The difference between them and us is night and day. The goalkeeper zoet was great at commanding his area and a fantastic shot stopper. The full backs were very athletic and were up and down. However they were a little suspect defensively imo but they were still outlets. The centre backs were comfortable on the ball and could play a long diagonal to a wide man or play a short ball to the midfielders or fullbacks. The midfielders as soon as that ball got to them they turned and looked for a forward pass to a wide player and if they couldn’t do that they would recycle possession. The wide players were more traditional wingers where they got the ball there first thought was to take on the man and knock it is to big de jong who is comfortable at heading the ball in the net or laying it off to someone. 
 

the difference between this team and ours is staggering. The goalkeepers are not great at shot stopping and they’re aren’t particularly great with there feet. Our fullbacks are actually on par imo with bogle and Lowe who are both attacking minded and can get up and down the sideline. The centre backs are an area to look at. Obviously Clarke is going back. Unsure if we’ll get him again but the rest of our cbs aren’t great. Maybe if we could take Bielik?? If magic mike is as good as people say he is then we should be very exited. I’d look at 1 more cb. The midfield is pretty much there however cocu played 433 at PSV so there was only one defensive midfielder who linked the defence into the midfield runners or the wide men. This could be Rooney or bird but can’t be both. The other 2 midfielders are made perfectly for sibley and knight. Both have engines on them both attacking minded sibley has the dribbling and threat in the box knight is a threat from anywhere tbh. We’re fine on midfielders. Now the dreaded W word. Wingers. We don’t have any that fit focus style ??he had bergjwin and depay both more traditional wingers that can cut inside but THEY HUG THE TOUCHLINE. This made the game so open and so wide for the wingers to have space and the midfield runners to have space. But the wingers first instinct was to run at their man and put the ball in the box. This never happens with us. I think either Lawrence moves to be part of the midfield runners or he is told to keep his width on the wing. We need a minimum 2 wingers with JML hopefully living up to the hype and being a bench player to start with and hopefully impressing then. And finally the strikers. Cocu want a big strong target man almost. Someone with the touch and grace of Martin the pace and finishing of Marriott  And the hard work of waggy. Someone in the mould of lewandowski . But obviously no where near his quality. Marriott could be a winger in this sense or the striker but we adapt how we play and try to drive the ball into the box for Marriott to pounce. Think if Martin leaves we’ll definitely need at least one striker. 
 

so finally to those who are hating on our current play style and saying cocu is not the one just look at what he’s missing. He’s missing a goalkeeper a centre back 2 wingers and a striker. If those problem areas are addressed this summer then I fully expect next season we’ll be right up there and this season will be completely forgotten about. 

[RoyMac5]

7 minutes ago, Big Trav said:

so finally to those who are hating on our current play style and saying cocu is not the one just look at what he’s missing. He’s missing a goalkeeper a centre back 2 wingers and a striker. 

Disagree on needing a striker if we get two decent wide players - they could easily bounce in off Waggy's arse! ?

[Dethorn]

But there are many variables - the championship v eredivision, the budgets, available players,

Sometimes you just have to cut your cloth accordingly

It maybe that he could not do all he wanted at PSV because he was missing a Chris Martin type player..... unlikely but my point is things change

But give any half decent manager a goalkeeper 2 centre backs 2 wingers and a striker just after signing an £8m Midfielder and Wayne Rooney and they should be able to do something useful

dare I say even Nigel Clough ?

[RadioactiveWaste]

36 minutes ago, Dethorn said:

But there are many variables - the championship v eredivision, the budgets, available players,

Sometimes you just have to cut your cloth accordingly

It maybe that he could not do all he wanted at PSV because he was missing a Chris Martin type player..... unlikely but my point is things change

But give any half decent manager a goalkeeper 2 centre backs 2 wingers and a striker just after signing an £8m Midfielder and Wayne Rooney and they should be able to do something useful

dare I say even Nigel Clough ?

Yup, Nigel would've had us a solid 8th.

[RadioactiveWaste]

58 minutes ago, Big Trav said:

So while lockdown has restricted me I decided to watch some of cocus title winning PSV sides. The difference between them and us is night and day. The goalkeeper zoet was great at commanding his area and a fantastic shot stopper. The full backs were very athletic and were up and down. However they were a little suspect defensively imo but they were still outlets. The centre backs were comfortable on the ball and could play a long diagonal to a wide man or play a short ball to the midfielders or fullbacks. The midfielders as soon as that ball got to them they turned and looked for a forward pass to a wide player and if they couldn’t do that they would recycle possession. The wide players were more traditional wingers where they got the ball there first thought was to take on the man and knock it is to big de jong who is comfortable at heading the ball in the net or laying it off to someone. 
 

the difference between this team and ours is staggering. The goalkeepers are not great at shot stopping and they’re aren’t particularly great with there feet. Our fullbacks are actually on par imo with bogle and Lowe who are both attacking minded and can get up and down the sideline. The centre backs are an area to look at. Obviously Clarke is going back. Unsure if we’ll get him again but the rest of our cbs aren’t great. Maybe if we could take Bielik?? If magic mike is as good as people say he is then we should be very exited. I’d look at 1 more cb. The midfield is pretty much there however cocu played 433 at PSV so there was only one defensive midfielder who linked the defence into the midfield runners or the wide men. This could be Rooney or bird but can’t be both. The other 2 midfielders are made perfectly for sibley and knight. Both have engines on them both attacking minded sibley has the dribbling and threat in the box knight is a threat from anywhere tbh. We’re fine on midfielders. Now the dreaded W word. Wingers. We don’t have any that fit focus style ??he had bergjwin and depay both more traditional wingers that can cut inside but THEY HUG THE TOUCHLINE. This made the game so open and so wide for the wingers to have space and the midfield runners to have space. But the wingers first instinct was to run at their man and put the ball in the box. This never happens with us. I think either Lawrence moves to be part of the midfield runners or he is told to keep his width on the wing. We need a minimum 2 wingers with JML hopefully living up to the hype and being a bench player to start with and hopefully impressing then. And finally the strikers. Cocu want a big strong target man almost. Someone with the touch and grace of Martin the pace and finishing of Marriott  And the hard work of waggy. Someone in the mould of lewandowski . But obviously no where near his quality. Marriott could be a winger in this sense or the striker but we adapt how we play and try to drive the ball into the box for Marriott to pounce. Think if Martin leaves we’ll definitely need at least one striker. 
 

so finally to those who are hating on our current play style and saying cocu is not the one just look at what he’s missing. He’s missing a goalkeeper a centre back 2 wingers and a striker. If those problem areas are addressed this summer then I fully expect next season we’ll be right up there and this season will be completely forgotten about. 

It's clear he has a vision for how he wants us to be, and, that we're not really near that yet.

It's been a very frustrating season, with a lot of disappointing performances but we've seen patches of it working. Rubbish season mostly, but I think we're heading the right direction. Losing four on the bounce even against top teams isn't going to make anyone jump for joy, but, it's a new season very soon.

[cheron85]

1 hour ago, Big Trav said:

So while lockdown has restricted me I decided to watch some of cocus title winning PSV sides.

Was it utterly dire and boring?

I've been told by many a 'highly knowledgeable' source that his PSV side were boring...

(I watched a few games and didn't think they were)

41 minutes ago, Dethorn said:

But give any half decent manager a goalkeeper 2 centre backs 2 wingers and a striker just after signing an £8m Midfielder and Wayne Rooney and they should be able to do something useful

It's not an unfair thing to suggest

Cocu was left with a a keeper who'd not been good enough for 5 years, lost his only full-time CB and has 3 wingers/wide-mids on the books - One of which he sold when at PSV and one who is really a striker

It's not just a case of "give him some new players" - It's a case of "actually getting to the size of squad we need to compete"

Our Macca (1) side had Russell and Ward when he arrived - And we started looking really good after we brought Dawkins and Bamford in - We have Lawrence and Waggers we just need to add a Dawkins and Bamford

Also worth pointing out that I very very much doubt Bielik was a Cocu choice - I think Te Wierik is the first signing I'm putting in the Cocu collumn

[Mostyn6]

I worry that Cocu's style of play has never been, and will never be successful in British/English football. Simply, the game is too intense and fast for his philosophy to thrive.

[LeedsRam1999]

57 minutes ago, Dethorn said:

But there are many variables - the championship v eredivision, the budgets, available players,

Sometimes you just have to cut your cloth accordingly

It maybe that he could not do all he wanted at PSV because he was missing a Chris Martin type player..... unlikely but my point is things change

But give any half decent manager a goalkeeper 2 centre backs 2 wingers and a striker just after signing an £8m Midfielder and Wayne Rooney and they should be able to do something useful

dare I say even Nigel Clough ?

That £8m player has been injured the vast majority of the season and you can’t properly utilise Wayne Rooney without pacy players for him to find. 
 

 

[Dethorn]

10 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

 

Also worth pointing out that I very very much doubt Bielik was a Cocu choice - I think Te Wierik is the first signing I'm putting in the Cocu collumn

Did not mean to imply that just that the one area the OP did not mention we had spent £8m and got Rooney in 

[cheron85]

7 minutes ago, Dethorn said:

Did not mean to imply that just that the one area the OP did not mention we had spent £8m and got Rooney in 

For me it just all rolls together in the "things Cocu has had to work around" - I suspect Lampard said we needed a new DM and Bielik was identified as one who could go on for a while - I think he'll come very good for us but I also think it meant Cocu arrived and was given £0 transfer budget

[Rammy03]

47 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

I worry that Cocu's style of play has never been, and will never be successful in British/English football. Simply, the game is too intense and fast for his philosophy to thrive

I'm not sure whether his style is 'slow' like some fans think. In his post match interview yesterday he talked about intensity, aggressiveness and being on the front foot. Why would he say all that if his style is slow? Somehow I think we're yet to see a proper cocu team.

[Big Trav]

1 hour ago, cheron85 said:

Was it utterly dire and boring?

I've been told by many a 'highly knowledgeable' source that his PSV side were boring...

(I watched a few games and didn't think they were)

 

They were all guns blazing from the start of the game. They pressed and pressed but when they got the ball they passed a lot but made progressive passes rather than the pass for pass sakes we have now. Once they had a goal or two they’d quite down a bit and preserve energy like we’re seeing sort of this season. If our football is anything like what was at PSV I’d enjoy it 100% 

[Mostyn6]

49 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

I'm not sure whether his style is 'slow' like some fans think. In his post match interview yesterday he talked about intensity, aggressiveness and being on the front foot. Why would he say all that if his style is slow? Somehow I think we're yet to see a proper cocu team.

I'm not sure what you are basing this on, it all feels a bit Nigel Clough to me, with the "it'll happen when....", I do hope you're right though, there's something mystical about Cocu, I'd love him to become a legend here.

[cheron85]

14 minutes ago, Big Trav said:

They were all guns blazing from the start of the game. They pressed and pressed but when they got the ball they passed a lot but made progressive passes rather than the pass for pass sakes we have now. Once they had a goal or two they’d quite down a bit and preserve energy like we’re seeing sort of this season. If our football is anything like what was at PSV I’d enjoy it 100% 

See I think that's what he's aiming for - We're just not there yet - He started at PSV with a quality level higher than we have and he needs time to build - These players are capable of playing that way, we've seen it in bursts - But if you players aren't the same calibre it takes longer for them to adapt and develop the ways of playing

Also I disagree about the 'pass for pass sakes' - We do it to retain possession - I think the big problem we have is the transition - To play this way we need to be able to go from slow to fast play really quickly - "go through the gears" and all that - But at the moment we don't do it quickly enough most of the time

[Ramarena]

2 hours ago, Big Trav said:

So while lockdown has restricted me I decided to watch some of cocus title winning PSV sides. The difference between them and us is night and day. The goalkeeper zoet was great at commanding his area and a fantastic shot stopper. The full backs were very athletic and were up and down. However they were a little suspect defensively imo but they were still outlets. The centre backs were comfortable on the ball and could play a long diagonal to a wide man or play a short ball to the midfielders or fullbacks. The midfielders as soon as that ball got to them they turned and looked for a forward pass to a wide player and if they couldn’t do that they would recycle possession. The wide players were more traditional wingers where they got the ball there first thought was to take on the man and knock it is to big de jong who is comfortable at heading the ball in the net or laying it off to someone. 
 

the difference between this team and ours is staggering. The goalkeepers are not great at shot stopping and they’re aren’t particularly great with there feet. Our fullbacks are actually on par imo with bogle and Lowe who are both attacking minded and can get up and down the sideline. The centre backs are an area to look at. Obviously Clarke is going back. Unsure if we’ll get him again but the rest of our cbs aren’t great. Maybe if we could take Bielik?? If magic mike is as good as people say he is then we should be very exited. I’d look at 1 more cb. The midfield is pretty much there however cocu played 433 at PSV so there was only one defensive midfielder who linked the defence into the midfield runners or the wide men. This could be Rooney or bird but can’t be both. The other 2 midfielders are made perfectly for sibley and knight. Both have engines on them both attacking minded sibley has the dribbling and threat in the box knight is a threat from anywhere tbh. We’re fine on midfielders. Now the dreaded W word. Wingers. We don’t have any that fit focus style ??he had bergjwin and depay both more traditional wingers that can cut inside but THEY HUG THE TOUCHLINE. This made the game so open and so wide for the wingers to have space and the midfield runners to have space. But the wingers first instinct was to run at their man and put the ball in the box. This never happens with us. I think either Lawrence moves to be part of the midfield runners or he is told to keep his width on the wing. We need a minimum 2 wingers with JML hopefully living up to the hype and being a bench player to start with and hopefully impressing then. And finally the strikers. Cocu want a big strong target man almost. Someone with the touch and grace of Martin the pace and finishing of Marriott  And the hard work of waggy. Someone in the mould of lewandowski . But obviously no where near his quality. Marriott could be a winger in this sense or the striker but we adapt how we play and try to drive the ball into the box for Marriott to pounce. Think if Martin leaves we’ll definitely need at least one striker. 
 

so finally to those who are hating on our current play style and saying cocu is not the one just look at what he’s missing. He’s missing a goalkeeper a centre back 2 wingers and a striker. If those problem areas are addressed this summer then I fully expect next season we’ll be right up there and this season will be completely forgotten about. 

Interesting read.

I’d agree.....I mentioned in another thread that I think this is more a personnel problem than a tactics problem.

We've played some decent stuff at times this season (mainly when Rooney came in) and you could see that Cocu does not tell them to go out and play crab football. 

He wants them to keep possession but As you say it allows certain players to go missing/be lazy. These are the players that will need rooting out and moving on.

We are crying out for an injection of aggressive, brave, influential, direct, Pacey players especially on the wings. I think an two good wingers and a mobile striker who can link with the midfield will transform this team.

Shame we can’t create a striker chimera from Martin and Waghorn!

[Barney1991]

Also 1 dm but who you choose. Woukd you trust bird on his own to play it or would bielik be the man. I hope he only plays one cdm and 2 players in the mould of runners and 2 wingers would be exciting. This way we could even play martin as he would have a bryson link up then 

[LeedsCityRam]

1 hour ago, Rammy03 said:

I'm not sure whether his style is 'slow' like some fans think. In his post match interview yesterday he talked about intensity, aggressiveness and being on the front foot. Why would he say all that if his style is slow? Somehow I think we're yet to see a proper cocu team.

The other thing to mention is Dutch football in general is neither slow or pedestrian. Sure, its technical but the very best Dutch sides were a blur of movement, interchanging positions & positive ball retention. The Eredvisie often has very high scorelines because of the culture of play there & Cocu's PSV were highest scorers in the division for 2 seasons in a row - in 2014/15, they scored 23 more goals than any other team. In his last season (17/18), they won the league for the 3rd time under him but only scored 2 goals less than the impressive Ajax team that should have made the Champions League final the following season.

Steve McClaren also credits his time in the Netherlands with reshaping his approach to the game & his adoption of 4-3-3, which he used to great effect with us in 2013/14. 

I'm confident a proper Cocu team is a decent watch & would translate well to this division when implemented properly.

 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

I pay little attention to what Cocu did at PSV  as they are a side who traditionally win or finish second in Eredivisie over the last fifty or sixty. years You would also expect them to have the pick of the countries best young players alongside Ajax. 

I will pay attention to what he does next season, as to be fair this one was an absolute cluster. If any of these young players improve-and significant improvement will be needed- and allow us to challenge and if any players we do bring in are, on an overall percentage, decent signings.

 

 

 

[LeedsCityRam]

2 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

I pay little attention to what Cocu did at PSV  as they are a side who traditionally win or finish second in Eredivisie over the last fifty or sixty. years You would also expect them to have the pick of the countries best young players alongside Ajax. 

I will pay attention to what he does next season, as to be fair this one was an absolute cluster. If any of these young players improve-and significant improvement will be needed- and allow us to challenge and if any players we do bring in are, on an overall percentage, decent signings.

 

 

 

Agreed they are a big player in Dutch football but the league there has been shared around a lot more than Scotland, Germany, Italy etc. AZ Alkmaar, Twente, Feyenoord and Ajax have all won titles in the last 12 years.

There's also added pressure at the big clubs. Ajax had won 4 titles in a row & PSV hadnt won a title for 7 years until Cocu won it in 14/15. That tells me Cocu isnt fazed by pressure & might explain his measured approach to the off-field drama this year.

Next season of course will tell us more but as we're currently a work in progress & some folk are having doubts, a look at PSV under Cocu gives us an indication of the finished article.

[jimbo jones]

We need the pacy wingers, with at least decent delivery into the box. With that in place it opens up the rest. We are too easy to defend against, it almost takes something really special every time we score.

The option of a quick diagonal ball, for some whippet on the wing to get after changes the whole dynamic of the team, and will give Sibley, Rooney and whoever space to work in..