Are Derby players deferring wages?

[i-Ram]

33 minutes ago, David said:

@i-Ram The article does say

The first major donation of food has arrived at Pride Park Stadium as part of Derby County’s ‘Stay Safe. Stay Fit. Stay Connected.’ project to help the city’s Covid-19 relief effort.

and 

“This is the first of an ongoing commitment to donate food to the relief effort. We are doing everything we can through a range of activities to support the communities we serve and this sizeable donation will help ensure food gets to those who most need it. “

Reads to me like there is more to come. 

We will watch and see, and hopefully admire, what our executive, players and management staff do throughout these difficult times (not simply in respect of charitable and community giving), and as you say there will be more to follow - although I read the ongoing commitment to be a quote coming from Derby County Community Trust.

[Day]

10 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

We will watch and see, and hopefully admire, what our executive, players and management staff do throughout these difficult times (not simply in respect of charitable and community giving), and as you say there will be more to follow - although I read the ongoing commitment to be a quote coming from Derby County Community Trust.

Don’t forget some players and staff will be donating and possibly working with charity’s elsewhere outside of the club, back in Poland, Netherlands etc, some of which might not be publicised. 

Wayne Rooney also his own foundation.

 

[i-Ram]

43 minutes ago, David said:

Don’t forget some players and staff will be donating and possibly working with charity’s elsewhere outside of the club, back in Poland, Netherlands etc, some of which might not be publicised. 

Wayne Rooney also his own foundation.

I think you are misunderstanding me David. I don’t doubt a lot of players, perhaps the majority, are doing lots of great charitable work - not just now but throughout their careers.

This thread is regarding players deferring wages. Back on April 7 John Percy advised that non-playing staff were being furloughed and that they were not being covered on the 20% shortfall. There has been no club confirmation of that, nor revealingly any denial. There must also be an assumption as nothing has been mentioned by the club that players remain on their full contracted wages.  At the time you posted:

The article by John Percy said an announcement would be made on Wednesday where Derby are expected to announce a major initiative to support the local community and the staff, backed by manager Phillip Cocu and first-team players. Before we stick the boot in, might be worth waiting for this announcement. Would have been nice for this story not to break the way it has, leaves a couple of days of anger to build towards the club when we might find out on Wednesday the players have either taken a cut, defer or donated wages to ensure staff don’t lose a penny.

The announcements made appear to be that Craig Forsyth is showing us how to make Fairy Castles, Steve Haines is explaining how to do a star jump, and that £5k has been rustled up by the highest paid of our staff by way of a donation to a charitable operation. This doesn’t strike me as any great response to me by the club or it’s players.  What do you think on reflection?

I remain somewhat surprised that Mel Morris or a.n.other authorised official hasn’t had more to say as to what the current position is. I think fans making financial and/or emotional contributions to the Club should know more as to this position. 

[Day]

1 hour ago, i-Ram said:

I think you are misunderstanding me David. I don’t doubt a lot of players, perhaps the majority, are doing lots of great charitable work - not just now but throughout their careers.

This thread is regarding players deferring wages. Back on April 7 John Percy advised that non-playing staff were being furloughed and that they were not being covered on the 20% shortfall. There has been no club confirmation of that, nor revealingly any denial. There must also be an assumption as nothing has been mentioned by the club that players remain on their full contracted wages.  At the time you posted:

The article by John Percy said an announcement would be made on Wednesday where Derby are expected to announce a major initiative to support the local community and the staff, backed by manager Phillip Cocu and first-team players. Before we stick the boot in, might be worth waiting for this announcement. Would have been nice for this story not to break the way it has, leaves a couple of days of anger to build towards the club when we might find out on Wednesday the players have either taken a cut, defer or donated wages to ensure staff don’t lose a penny.

The announcements made appear to be that Craig Forsyth is showing us how to make Fairy Castles, Steve Haines is explaining how to do a star jump, and that £5k has been rustled up by the highest paid of our staff by way of a donation to a charitable operation. This doesn’t strike me as any great response to me by the club or it’s players.  What do you think on reflection?

I remain somewhat surprised that Mel Morris or a.n.other authorised official hasn’t had more to say as to what the current position is. I think fans making financial and/or emotional contributions to the Club should know more as to this position. 

The thread is regarding players wages, but you made no mention of that when you brought the topic back to life calling the donation lame. Only when you have been pulled up on that comment wages are being mentioned again.

I don’t know the number of staff that have been furloughed, nor do I know if the club or players are topping it up or not.

That is between the club and staff and I don’t personally see it being something that requires an announcement. How many clubs have? I’ve seen Forest mentioned as another that have furloughed their staff but no announcement, I haven’t been looking but only Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal have. Other clubs such as Man Utd, Man City are reported not to be using the furlough scheme but none have made announcements unless I’ve missed them.

As for the clubs response, they are providing content for the fans/community and made an initial donation of 5k and sounds like more is to follow. Is that enough? I think Mucker made a great post earlier on calling any donation “lame” and I would also refer back to my earlier post where players are supporting charities and food banks outside of the club.

I think I have donated a total of £60/80 into the Food Bank collection on this site, embarrassingly I’ve probably spent more on alcohol this lockdown whilst others are struggling. How lame am I?

I would imagine the club officials, especially across the Football Leagues right now are trying to wrap their heads around the situation and spend most of their days in online meetings trying to figure out a number of issues.

I’m sure when the club are in the position to update us they will, but like us we are pretty much all waiting on government advice.

[Millenniumram]

To be fair, I don’t see the need to complain about any charitable donation, no matter how “small” it seems in the grand scheme of things. It all adds up, and even “just” 5k will go a long way to making sure people aren’t going hungry. But no charitable donation by the club will provide any solace to the non playing staff who are currently having to survive on even lower wages than they’d normally get - which I doubt are very high to start with. It’s an absolute disgrace imo that we haven’t topped that 80% up. 

[i-Ram]

1 hour ago, David said:

The thread is regarding players wages, but you made no mention of that when you brought the topic back to life calling the donation lame. Only when you have been pulled up on that comment wages are being mentioned again.

I don’t know the number of staff that have been furloughed, nor do I know if the club or players are topping it up or not.

That is between the club and staff and I don’t personally see it being something that requires an announcement. How many clubs have? I’ve seen Forest mentioned as another that have furloughed their staff but no announcement, I haven’t been looking but only Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal have. Other clubs such as Man Utd, Man City are reported not to be using the furlough scheme but none have made announcements unless I’ve missed them.

As for the clubs response, they are providing content for the fans/community and made an initial donation of 5k and sounds like more is to follow. Is that enough? I think Mucker made a great post earlier on calling any donation “lame” and I would also refer back to my earlier post where players are supporting charities and food banks outside of the club.

I think I have donated a total of £60/80 into the Food Bank collection on this site, embarrassingly I’ve probably spent more on alcohol this lockdown whilst others are struggling. How lame am I?

I would imagine the club officials, especially across the Football Leagues right now are trying to wrap their heads around the situation and spend most of their days in online meetings trying to figure out a number of issues.

I’m sure when the club are in the position to update us they will, but like us we are pretty much all waiting on government advice.

You suggest I have been ‘pulled up’ in respect of my previous comments? I don’t feel like I have been pulled up, but even so that is what a forum is about - an open exchange of differing views.  I could suggest you seem ‘touchy’ and somewhat defensive about the points I have made. Whether you actually are I really don’t know.

Both you and Mucker have made a point of bringing your personal donations into the debate as a counter measure to what the club have done. Not sure why, but for openness (and as you will probably know) I have not donated to the fund. I could give details of why, and also what I have done differently, but personal donations really isn’t the debate here is it.

You also make mention of other clubs, giving a few examples. I really am not interested in other clubs.

I personally remain of the view that Mel Morris and/or the club should be communicating better on this matter, and would welcome greater openness. Mel however has some form for delaying the sharing of important information to fans (e.g. transfer of the ground) so I suspect I will be waiting some while.  I accept what is important to me might not be as important to others. Good job really we are all different. Life, and this forum, would be quite boring otherwise.

[Day]

Just now, i-Ram said:

You suggest I have been ‘pulled up’ in respect of my previous comments? I don’t feel like I have been pulled up, but even so that is what a forum is about - an open exchange of differing views.  I could suggest you seem ‘touchy’ and somewhat defensive about the points I have made. Whether you actually are I really don’t know.

Both you and Mucker have made a point of bringing your personal donations into the debate as a counter measure to what the club have done. Not sure why, but for openness (and as you will probably know) I have not donated to the fund. I could give details of why, and also what I have done differently, but personal donations really isn’t the debate here is it.

You also make mention of other clubs, giving a few examples. I really am not interested in other clubs.

I personally remain of the view that Mel Morris and/or the club should be communicating better on this matter, and would welcome greater openness. Mel however has some form for delaying the sharing of important information to fans (e.g. transfer of the ground) so I suspect I will be waiting some while.  I accept what is important to me might not be as important to others. Good job really we are all different. Life, and this forum, would be quite boring otherwise.

Pulled up as in disagreed with, not touchy at all. I’m pretty relaxed in all honesty as I try to sit back and look at the bigger picture, not saying you’re not, just that I think the future of this club is at stake right now with a number of other Football League clubs the longer this continues.

My girlfriend has been furloughed. She works at Next, a company that last year posted pre tax profits of £722m. 

From 24th March she was on full pay with Next topping up the remaining 20% until the 11th April where she is now on 80% of her wages.

As a result we have taken the option of a mortgage break for the next 3 months with no idea or communication from the company when they are likely to ask her to return.

£722m pre tax profits remember.

The CEO, Lord Simon Wolfson of the Tory party brought forward the Next Sale conveniently to just before the lock down.

Football clubs and players are making the news for taking up these furloughing schemes with uproar from fans whilst high street retailers are using the scheme despite posting eye watering profits and nothing mentioned.

Saw the other day the Beckham’s have also used it, again doubt it will make the daily briefings.

This might be a classic case of whataboutery, I just think it’s worth remembering the business that is Derby County which we seem to hold higher expectations off is losing money, millions and just like Next will have no revenue streams right now apart from online merchandise sales and season ticket renewals which I suspect are very low.

There is no profits of £722m to fall back on though. Yes Mel will have his own personal wealth whatever that maybe, but I would imagine his focus is purely on not just getting Derby County through this crisis but his other business interests, even family. 

You say you’re not interested in other clubs and that’s fair enough, but Derby County are not alone in their silence and I would imagine for good reasons as a number of issues are dealt with. I’m sure when they do make an announcement fans will be quick to jump in with the Club Statement FC corner flag memes and then pulled apart just as the £5000 food bank donation.

With the clubs £5000 and this forums £2000 efforts, rather than thinking is that all, I’m thinking about those families that will eat tonight thanks to our members and the club, not is that all they can muster up. 

[Rev]

12 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

To be fair, I don’t see the need to complain about any charitable donation, no matter how “small” it seems in the grand scheme of things. It all adds up, and even “just” 5k will go a long way to making sure people aren’t going hungry. But no charitable donation by the club will provide any solace to the non playing staff who are currently having to survive on even lower wages than they’d normally get - which I doubt are very high to start with. It’s an absolute disgrace imo that we haven’t topped that 80% up. 

The thing is, we don't really know if it's a disgrace or not.

We could be topping the wages up, we might not, they might not be furloughed, who knows?

The club do I suppose, and seeing as they've encouraged this openness in dialogue between fans and the club, through the Fans Forums, the meetings between the board and fans groups etc (btw what has happened to the Forums under Cocu?), it looks grubby and underhand to not respond to this crisis in a way consistent with past experience.

For example, the first version of the OS article yesterday clearly said "furloughed staff took part in the initiative", yet minutes later it's removed.

Why? 

Are the club embarrassed, if so why, it's a scheme open to most businesses, why shouldn't we take part?

[Millenniumram]

10 minutes ago, reverendo de duivel said:

The thing is, we don't really know if it's a disgrace or not.

We could be topping the wages up, we might not, they might not be furloughed, who knows?

The club do I suppose, and seeing as they've encouraged this openness in dialogue between fans and the club, through the Fans Forums, the meetings between the board and fans groups etc (btw what has happened to the Forums under Cocu?), it looks grubby and underhand to not respond to this crisis in a way consistent with past experience.

For example, the first version of the OS article yesterday clearly said "furloughed staff took part in the initiative", yet minutes later it's removed.

Why? 

Are the club embarrassed, if so why, it's a scheme open to most businesses, why shouldn't we take part?

To be fair, it was an article by John Percy I believe which said they’d been furloughed without the wages topped up. I appreciate we haven’t had official confirmation, but that’s as reliable a source as you’ll get. It does seem very strange that we haven’t made any sort of statement about what’s going on, for me that makes the whole situation worse. As I’ve said before, I don’t have any problem the club using the furloughing scheme - it’s what it’s there for. But In my view, unless a business genuinely doesn’t have the funds to top up that extra 20%, then staff should still receive their full wages somehow. Surely we can find that 20% somewhere, and if we can’t, them we’re in much more financial trouble than we initially thought.

[CWC1983]

I always thought DCFC had a really close relationship with their fans, and was impressed how they managed to foster the 1 club, 1 city feel. 

Ive got a vested interest up north, and get emails, tweets etc sent from both clubs and theres been quite a difference in communication over the last couple of weeks. 

From the other club, details on,

Directors giving 10% on season ticket sales to local community trusts. So far £65k has been handed over, the target being £125k 

Players and staff phoning fans on their database for a general chat to see how they are coping. 

Wage deferrals between 10% and 30% for 4 months, players and management.

The wage deferrals will mean no furloughing of non playing staff to ensure they get normal pay. 

Directors investing £2m to see the club through the next 3 months. 

Video interviews on the current situation within the club and football in general from chairman, manager, captain. 

All clubs are different, and they will be in different situations at the moment. This isnt me having a go at DCFC. Its just a comparison with how other clubs are communicating with their fans / community.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

[iolanthe]

 

[Orphanram]

A very different spin on the same story from the Mail
 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8246695/Wayne-Rooney-WAGE-WAR-Striker-leading-Derby-players-battle-against-clubs-proposed-50-deferral.html
 

 

[Papahet]

I honestly can’t remember the last time the club had good press (none DET) you know, it’s been one thing after another for years.

[Inverurie Ram]

2 hours ago, CWC1983 said:

I always thought DCFC had a really close relationship with their fans, and was impressed how they managed to foster the 1 club, 1 city feel. 

Ive got a vested interest up north, and get emails, tweets etc sent from both clubs and theres been quite a difference in communication over the last couple of weeks. 

From the other club, details on,

Directors giving 10% on season ticket sales to local community trusts. So far £65k has been handed over, the target being £125k 

Players and staff phoning fans on their database for a general chat to see how they are coping. 

Wage deferrals between 10% and 30% for 4 months, players and management.

The wage deferrals will mean no furloughing of non playing staff to ensure they get normal pay. 

Directors investing £2m to see the club through the next 3 months. 

Video interviews on the current situation within the club and football in general from chairman, manager, captain. 

All clubs are different, and they will be in different situations at the moment. This isnt me having a go at DCFC. Its just a comparison with how other clubs are communicating with their fans / community.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes @CWC1983 I've been receiving the e-mails too. I think the new chairman Dave Cormack and the great work of the Aberdeen FC Community Trust and a host of changes to the club since the replacement of Stewart Milne has had a major impact on the club and therefore the club is very positive in it's new position in these difficult times.

I hate to say it but maybe the likes of the current DCFC Graeme Shinnie video talking about his beard is not the best!

 

[CWC1983]

6 hours ago, Inverurie Ram said:

Yes @CWC1983 I've been receiving the e-mails too. I think the new chairman Dave Cormack and the great work of the Aberdeen FC Community Trust and a host of changes to the club since the replacement of Stewart Milne has had a major impact on the club and therefore the club is very positive in it's new position in these difficult times.

I hate to say it but maybe the likes of the current DCFC Graeme Shinnie video talking about his beard is not the best!

 

Yeah, things have turned full circle. Perhaps its the time he's spent in  the US thats brought the fresh approach. 

Anyway, back to DCFC, as soon as I posted last night the article came out regarding the wage deferrals.

Theres obviously a lot of work going on behind the scenes and its probobly gone on a lot longer than both parties would like.

On the face of it, 50% seems like a big lump, and 25% seems fair.  However, who knows what the short term cash flow looks like?. The uncertainty over the timeline of football starting again wont be helping. 

Lets hope an amicable solution can be found and the club can come out of this with a fresh start. 

[i-Ram]

Most bizarre that the players are insisting on seeing the Club’s accounts.  Doesn’t sound like a great deal of trust.

Negotiations only seem to relate to deferral, not waiver, of wages so players still don’t want to give up anything (other than payment timing).

Derby pushing for 50% deferral suggests cash flow is an acute problem - perfectly understandable.

All in all can anybody see this ending satisfactorily?  Must be the same for all EFL club’s obviously.

This virus may absolutely decimate the football industry. I don’t think that Is a bad thing.  Football needs a complete reset.

 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

32 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Most bizarre that the players are insisting on seeing the Club’s accounts.  Doesn’t sound like a great deal of trust.

Agreed. It also suggests that Rooney isn't interested in holding the club to ransom, but that he wants a fair deal for the players based on what the club can reasonably afford.

[Day]

John Percy article no mention of players wanting to see club accounts.

Daily Mail, players want to see accounts. 

Daily Mail, no further comment needed.

[Rev]

2 minutes ago, David said:

John Percy article no mention of players wanting to see club accounts.

Daily Mail, players want to see accounts. 

Dail Mail, no further comment needed.

Accountants don't seem to agree what the accounts show, so God knows how footballers could decipher them.

[Day]

3 minutes ago, reverendo de duivel said:

Accountants don't seem to agree what the accounts show, so God knows how footballers could decipher them.

Makes the story more juicy though. 

I’m sure I posted earlier in the topic I wasn’t a fan of Percy’s original article where it mentioned the staff being furloughed without wages being topped up and a big announcement.

Now the club are expected to respond to this but are they in a position to?

Yesterday’s article suggests the club want it agreed before the staff and players wages are due next week.

Understandable, could the result of this have an effect on the remaining 20% of wages for staff?

Will an announcement be made once an agreement has been reached?

All these articles have done is create anger and frustration towards the club which I think is personally unfair, negotiations over wage cuts and deferrals will never be quick and easy, look at Arsenal, who are an interesting case as the media are reporting 3 players have refused whilst only naming Ozil, why not call out the other 2?

We all react to stories instantly, it’s hard not to, but advert revenue is down, seen it with my own eyes, newspapers are struggling to survive, would imagine a fair few inaccurate and sensationalist stories will be rushed to press for clicks.

The media love Ozil, and it’s fair to say the Daily Mail have their eyes on us for some bizarre reason. 

As for the deferrals I think Rooney had it spot on the other week, blanket percentage cuts/deferrals cannot be the answer as some players are not on the contracts others are and might have financial commitments.

It’s a tricky time for all clubs, especially Football League clubs. Just think the club deserves to be cut some slack and try to remain patient whilst they figure things out. If this is the club I think it is, an announcement will come when they can.