The Politics Thread 2020

[GboroRam]

8 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

I'm sure the NHS and social care could have massive cash injections, but how would people feel if it meant them paying an extra 2 or 3% in tax or nic?

I'm guessing that a lot would all of a sudden not be so keen on improving the NHS.

I suspect you are 1000000% wrong. 

If only we'd done a fraction of what we're going to do anyway, just think what the NHS could look like today? Think how many people would have not unnecessarily died, or died with a shred of dignity? How much better would the NHS be able to respond to Coronavirus if we'd already started funding it years ago instead of crippling it financially? 

[G STAR RAM]

21 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I suspect you are 1000000% wrong. 

If only we'd done a fraction of what we're going to do anyway, just think what the NHS could look like today? Think how many people would have not unnecessarily died, or died with a shred of dignity? How much better would the NHS be able to respond to Coronavirus if we'd already started funding it years ago instead of crippling it financially? 

So you think everyone is ok with tax rises?

Funny because most of the posts I see are saying it's the rich that should be funding everything.

I assume you make voluntary contributions to the NHS?

[Tamworthram]

12 hours ago, Uptherams said:

I expect further measures. Giving every household £1000 for example, would only cost £28 billion. 

Surely you don’t mean EVERY household?

Not every household needs it. I’m in the fortunate position that I don’t. Whilst it would inevitably take longer, be more complicated and still open to criticism regardless, I’d rather any further support is targeted at those that really need it: business (large and small) to stay in existence so that people have jobs to go back to even if they’ve been laid off right now, support for low income and those in need because they’re not working for whatever reason etc. 
 

There simply is no easy answer that will meet with everyone’s approval.

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

8 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

You do realise the extreme amounts of money we, as a country, are going to have to borrow over this right?

That will have to be paid back somehow in future years.

I'm sure the NHS and social care could have massive cash injections, but how would people feel if it meant them paying an extra 2 or 3% in tax or nic?

I'm guessing that a lot would all of a sudden not be so keen on improving the NHS.

Borrowing --> Basic economics.

Paid back future years --> That's the idea with borrowing.

More tax/NIC for NHS --> No problem, happy with that. 

 

 

[Stive Pesley]

9 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

You do realise the extreme amounts of money we, as a country, are going to have to borrow over this right?

That will have to be paid back somehow in future years.

Not sure it will (need to be paid back) - who are we paying it back to? Pretty much every country on earth is suddenly having to print a gigantic amount of money, just to keep people alive and keep society functioning. Because if they don't - there won't be much "normality" left to return to when this is over.

I think the planet is in the midst of a massive live experiment in modern monetary theory.

 

 

 

[G STAR RAM]

6 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Not sure it will (need to be paid back) - who are we paying it back to? Pretty much every country on earth is suddenly having to print a gigantic amount of money, just to keep people alive and keep society functioning. Because if they don't - there won't be much "normality" left to return to when this is over.

I think the planet is in the midst of a massive live experiment in modern monetary theory.

Well if everyone is in exactly the same boat then surely nobody would have to print money?

I think somebody is profiting from this and wouldnt be at all surprised if it was an experiment that went beyond monetary theory...

[Stive Pesley]

1 minute ago, G STAR RAM said:

Well if everyone is in exactly the same boat then surely nobody would have to print money?

I think somebody is profiting from this and wouldnt be at all surprised if it was an experiment that went beyond monetary theory...

I know - it's making my head hurt, trying to work out where the trillions of $£€ will eventually end up, and if it's loans - how would it ever be paid back, who to and why?

Any economics professors on here?

 

[RoyMac5]

22 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Any economics professors on here?

A bit like with those adverts for 'Pools winning schemes' I always think if they were any good at it they'd be somewhere sunning themselves in their own mega-mansion. Not writing diddly papers on how the economy works! ? ?

[Stive Pesley]

34 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

A bit like with those adverts for 'Pools winning schemes' I always think if they were any good at it they'd be somewhere sunning themselves in their own mega-mansion. Not writing diddly papers on how the economy works! ? ?

That's certainly true - except the problem with economic theories, is that they are usually just that - theories

We've been living through a fairly lengthy period of mixed market orthodoxy when it comes to economics.  Anyone suggesting anything radical might be a better idea (eg MMT) either gets shot down or politely applauded safe in the knowledge that it will never happen.

A major event like this pandemic is a potential catalyst for a massive shift in the way economies are run.

Economics know-it-alls - your time has come! Tell us what to do!

 

 

[A Ram for All Seasons]

11 hours ago, SchtivePesley said:

I think a lot of people are realising the sand on which capitalism built it's house

I think that this is essentially about Darwinism, which has been around since life on Earth began and predates capitalism by about 3.7 billion years, but there are many parallels with the Ayn Rand branch of capitalism that has become so popular on the right - the idea that the selfish actions of the fittest will somehow drag us all up with them and get rid of the dead wood so we all have space to flourish and prosper.

For me, politics has always been about finding ways to enable the less fit and even the unfit to have their fair share and lead a decent life. This crisis is a timely reminder of that, but I do really wish I didn't have to be reminded.

[A Ram for All Seasons]

49 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Economics know-it-alls - your time has come! Tell us what to do!

I'm sure all these billionaire-funded think tanks will be only too happy to oblige.

[ariotofmyown]

Thought this was interesting

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/18/politics-public-covid-19-tobacco-johnson

[Stive Pesley]

11 minutes ago, A Ram for All Seasons said:

I think that this is essentially about Darwinism, which has been around since life on Earth began and predates capitalism by about 3.7 billion years, but there are many parallels with the Ayn Rand branch of capitalism that has become so popular on the right - the idea that the selfish actions of the fittest will somehow drag us all up with them and get rid of the dead wood so we all have space to flourish and prosper.

Yeah I see that. What I meant about the house built on sand was that if the capitalist mindset is so superior and clever, then why has it never built-in the ability to deal with situations like this? And of course the answer is "because there is no obvious immediate profit to be made in building those safeguards in to the system". A fatal flaw if you like. The need to make a pound today has always trumped (no pun intended) the need to worry about what might or might not happen tomorrow.

[A Ram for All Seasons]

2 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Yeah I see that. What I meant about the house built on sand was that if the capitalist mindset is so superior and clever, then why has it never built-in the ability to deal with situations like this? And of course the answer is "because there is no obvious immediate profit to be made in building those safeguards in to the system". A fatal flaw if you like. The need to make a pound today has always trumped (no pun intended) the need to worry about what might or might not happen tomorrow.

The thinking has always been that if you make a pound today, you'll make 5 pounds tomorrow. Now we know that isn't true.

[BaaLocks]

2 hours ago, SchtivePesley said:

I know - it's making my head hurt, trying to work out where the trillions of $£€ will eventually end up, and if it's loans - how would it ever be paid back, who to and why?

Any economics professors on here?

 

It's basically the same as 2008 all over again - between 2009-2012 we injected £375bn on quantitative easing into the economy. We're now promising around £300bn of support - 15% of the UK GDP, £11k per household - and it's only the start according to RIshi. That 'magic money tree' budget offered last week seems a long, long way away now.

'Austerity - Return Of The Crunch (We're Still In This Together)' is coming to a town near you, opening today.

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

2 hours ago, SchtivePesley said:

I know - it's making my head hurt, trying to work out where the trillions of $£€ will eventually end up, and if it's loans - how would it ever be paid back, who to and why?

Any economics professors on here?

 

Do you remember the bank for bad loans for Northern Rock etc...? Whatever happened to this ? May be we need another one of these. 

PS: I am not one of these, household finance is enough trouble as it is but then again that is my money whereas those professors got ideas about other people's money.

[GboroRam]

3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

So you think everyone is ok with tax rises?

Funny because most of the posts I see are saying it's the rich that should be funding everything.

I assume you make voluntary contributions to the NHS?

I'm absolutely certain pretty much everyone would be prepared to invest more tax to fund the NHS. In fact probably the poorest in society would support it more than the well off. 

The rich should be funding it because, well, they can afford it. 

I don't make voluntary contributions of course. I'm not an economic martyr giving away my money - but I'd fully support being part of an organised push where we all support the NHS. Would you not?

[Uptherams]

4 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Surely you don’t mean EVERY household?

Not every household needs it. I’m in the fortunate position that I don’t. Whilst it would inevitably take longer, be more complicated and still open to criticism regardless, I’d rather any further support is targeted at those that really need it: business (large and small) to stay in existence so that people have jobs to go back to even if they’ve been laid off right now, support for low income and those in need because they’re not working for whatever reason etc. 
 

There simply is no easy answer that will meet with everyone’s approval.

It's easier in circumstances such as this, to give as many people as possible a cash injection. Simply because you don't want people slipping through the cracks. If you don't need it you can spend it or give it to someone else. Nothing stopping people doing this. There are millions of self employed people, for example, who would be quite happy to be paid for their services. The purpose of such a proposal isn't just to support people in financial trouble, but to stimulate a stalling economy. 

[Uptherams]

I hope all of this funding the government is proposing, has strings attached. For example, board members etc, not earning 4X more than their average employee wage for 2 /3 years. I hope a company steps forward and initiates something like this asap and publicise it, so other companies follow their lead. 

[GboroRam]

24 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

I hope all of this funding the government is proposing, has strings attached. For example, board members etc, not earning 4X more than their average employee wage for 2 /3 years. I hope a company steps forward and initiates something like this asap and publicise it, so other companies follow their lead. 

You're sounding dangerously left wing, now. Come to the dark side, comrade!