Cocu at PSV

[LeedsCityRam]

43 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

FWIW, Cocu is probably a good manager at the style he plays, his record at PSV suggests he is and I wouldn’t say otherwise. But, for me, that style isn’t right for us, or what I want to be seeing long term. Others may disagree which is fair enough, we all have differing opinions on the best style of play, but for me he’s entirely the wrong man. And this is the crux of why I can’t back him at the moment.

I would argue we dont have a 'best style of play' looking at the squad right now. Because of the constant managerial changes, there is a mishmash of a squad with players bought by different managers for different styles. The current squad isn't good enough to play attacking, stylish football. We're not set up to go direct. We don't have the personnel suited to be counter-attacking & we dont keep the ball well enough to dominate possession.

Therefore the only way out of this is to give a proven manager time to build a team in his favoured style & then continue to recruit to that model. Big caveat being it won't be a quick fix & there will be ropey spells.

Re Cocu's style, I dont recall his PSV side particularly but the stats show they scoreď plenty of goals whilst winning the league (92, 88 and 87 goals in the 3 title winning years). And he believes in possession based football, which seems in keeping with how the majority of our fanbase want to play (judging by the distaste shown for Pearson's & Rowett's teams)

[MackworthRamIsGod]

1 hour ago, Millenniumram said:

Fair bit of hyperbole from the OP, but I think the point is a very important one. Cocu doesnt play attacking football. Simple as that. Never has done, probably never will do. Personally, I don’t agree with the OP about possession play etc etc, I don’t find that boring to watch. But a defensive mentality pisses me off more than anything. And that’s what Cocu seems to have, and all evidence suggests he always has done. So if we thought we were getting in a Mac/Lampard type manager for continuity, then sadly we have, once again, not done our research and got the wrong man. It seems to me that was the plan, and that’s why I’m Cocu out. I want us to build a long term attacking philosophy (I think the club do too), and Cocu isn’t the man to do that.

It’s gonna take a massive rebuild to get a side that can play Cocus way, as it’s totally at odds With what we recruited for last year. If you’re Cocu in and you don’t mind that, or a defensive style of play, then that’s fair enough. We need a rebuild either way up, so it’s a valid view to have. But if you’re Cocu in because you’re clinging on to the hope that he’ll have us playing fast paced attacking football given time, then I’m sorry, but you’re just wrong. Or, at the very least, it’s blind faith as nothing in his career so far has suggested that he will have the side playing that way. Same goes for the club, if they brought him in hoping for that sort of style, then I think they’ve made a great mistake.

FWIW, Cocu is probably a good manager at the style he plays, his record at PSV suggests he is and I wouldn’t say otherwise. But, for me, that style isn’t right for us, or what I want to be seeing long term. Others may disagree which is fair enough, we all have differing opinions on the best style of play, but for me he’s entirely the wrong man. And this is the crux of why I can’t back him at the moment.

My issue is why he insists on basing our tactics and style of play around our defense currently, when our defensive is as poor as it's been for a long long time, perhaps worse than pre Clough days.

I find it strange that he didn't try a more direct approach, until he gets the players he needs, seeing as that would have suited this team more.

Injuries haven't helped in the slightest, but he seems to have his way of playing and it doesnt matter the circumstances, he sticks with it.

It's why I worry that people like Whittaker and Sibley wont ever work here as they wont get the time to showcase their attacking ability as most of our play is in our half.

Hopefully January we seem drastic improvement.

[Ramfan1958]

Anyone who thinks Cocu team is better to watch than Rowetts need to go to Specsavers.  This team is shocking get real before it's to late Cocu Out !!!

[Wolfie20]

Is there an echo in here?

[May Contain Nuts]

42 minutes ago, Remy the hare said:

What I don’t get is folk saying hate Rowett’s boring tactics, dislike Rowett’s counterattack style, but then say if Coco plays boring footy and wins the league we’d all be happy. You cannot have it both ways?

I know we collapsed in the end but we sat 2nd on 1st January 2018 with 49 points under Rowett. If we beat Charlton on Monday we’ll have 30 points ☹️

There's a difference between being a counter attacking team and setting your team up to counter the opposition's tactics.

Gary Rowett's tactics were sit in your own half of the pitch, let the opposition have all the possession, keep shape, win the ball no more than 25 yards from your own goal, smash it (sorry, play it) down the wing for someone to chase, get to the byline, pull it back for your striker to knock it in. You set up the same way every single match, home or away no matter the opposition.

If the opposition don't commit forward then you've got no option but to have some possession yourself, but when you've got possession what do you do with it? You're not used to playing this way! This isn't what you've trained for all season!

Your opponent has already planned for this though, they know exactly how you're going to play, so what do they do? They counter your tactics and walk away with the victory! Oh no, but.. opposing the opposition, that's... baaaaaad?

[AndyinLiverpool]

26 minutes ago, Ramfan1958 said:

Anyone who thinks Cocu team is better to watch than Rowetts need to go to Specsavers.  This team is shocking get real before it's to late Cocu Out !!!

Zzzzzz

[Pearl Ram]

Still hasn’t come up with who he’d get in to replace Cocu I see.

[Alph]

45 minutes ago, Ramfan1958 said:

Anyone who thinks Cocu team is better to watch than Rowetts need to go to Specsavers.  This team is shocking get real before it's to late Cocu Out !!!

Cocu inherited a worse team than Rowett

I mean a couple of the best players Cocu has are Rowett signings. And they're not very good.

While Rowett inherited a better team and his better players weren't signed by him. 

The real winner was Lampard who inherited an ok-ish team and added 3 outstanding loans.

[Alph]

16 minutes ago, Pearl Ram said:

Still hasn’t come up with who he’d get in to replace Cocu I see.

I think it's been assumed Chris Hughton would walk in and instantly improve us in the same way it was assumed Nigel "at Leicester" Pearson would kick these bottle jobs into gear. 

I think most accept Cocu's excuses though. He's doing badly but with the players available to him is it much lower than expectations? 

[GB SPORTS]

5 hours ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

I know a Galatasary fan who works in town, he said as soon as we got Cocu that he wouldn't succeed, I thought he was just being a negative Nancy.

He told me recently that he went to Fernerbache, they wanted him to build something (similar to his task at Derby), but he completely ruined them. The current Fernebache manager inherited a completely ruined team and he had to stop them from going down.

 

Did he give you a decent shave and haircut though?

[GB SPORTS]

6 hours ago, Ramfan1958 said:

He may have won the title but PSV fans I work with have said

.His  football was boring

.His tactics were negative 

.Possesion is everything.

.Pass backwards from the forwards to the defenders to the goalkeeper but don't give the ball away.!!!!

.His after match talks were the same every week we played well ,I'm proud of the players !!.

Finally the were really pleased once He was gone .

GET RID NOW BEFORE ITS TO LATE

 

.

 

Yes 395 goals in 170 Eredivisie games is very negative ?

[Philmycock]

1 hour ago, Ramfan1958 said:

Anyone who thinks Cocu team is better to watch than Rowetts need to go to Specsavers.  This team is shocking get real before it's to late Cocu Out !!!

Glad I don't sit near you (prob on settee?)

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, WHAT DO I GET said:

Yes 395 goals in 170 Eredivisie games is very negative ?

22 in 24 in the English Championship is though ?

 

[GB SPORTS]

1 minute ago, Andicis said:

22 in 24 in the English Championship is though ?

 

Agreed, but I don't see us sitting back,I just see players who don't have the ability to play the system that Cocu wants(with exceptions) The jury is definitely out with him but I don't see the point of the executioner until he has had the chance to do it his way.

[SamUltraRam]

So if I understand this right we just need to defend better, keep possession better and counter attack better & we'll be as successful as his PSV team - simples !!

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, WHAT DO I GET said:

Agreed, but I don't see us sitting back,I just see players who don't have the ability to play the system that Cocu wants(with exceptions) The jury is definitely out with him but I don't see the point of the executioner until he has had the chance to do it his way.

I see this said all the time, top managers adapt their styles and formation to make do what they have. Now, Cocu obviously cannot make our squad play like prime 2010 Barcelona, but you adapt and play styles that suit your players. And if you can only make it work with a very rigid and set formation, you're just not a very good manager. 

[Steve How Hard?]

4 minutes ago, Andicis said:

I see this said all the time, top managers adapt their styles and formation to make do what they have. Now, Cocu obviously cannot make our squad play like prime 2010 Barcelona, but you adapt and play styles that suit your players. And if you can only make it work with a very rigid and set formation, you're just not a very good manager. 

Just playing devils advocate but isn't it also true that if you're a player that can't adapt to different formations then you ain't a very good player. It's true that we ain't performing anywhere near expected levels but I don't think you can lay the blame solely at Cocus door although I do acknowledge he isn't entirely blameless. 

[lrm14]

8 minutes ago, Andicis said:

I see this said all the time, top managers adapt their styles and formation to make do what they have. Now, Cocu obviously cannot make our squad play like prime 2010 Barcelona, but you adapt and play styles that suit your players. And if you can only make it work with a very rigid and set formation, you're just not a very good manager. 

What style should we be playing with then? Considering we don't have a single capable winger or creative midfielder in the squad, nor do we have a big man up top we can lump it to, nor do we have a stable defence to sit deep and rely on, I'm struggling to think of an obvious style of play that this squad is suited for.

[Remy the hare]

1 hour ago, Coconut said:

There's a difference between being a counter attacking team and setting your team up to counter the opposition's tactics.

Gary Rowett's tactics were sit in your own half of the pitch, let the opposition have all the possession, keep shape, win the ball no more than 25 yards from your own goal, smash it (sorry, play it) down the wing for someone to chase, get to the byline, pull it back for your striker to knock it in. You set up the same way every single match, home or away no matter the opposition.

If the opposition don't commit forward then you've got no option but to have some possession yourself, but when you've got possession what do you do with it? You're not used to playing this way! This isn't what you've trained for all season!

Your opponent has already planned for this though, they know exactly how you're going to play, so what do they do? They counter your tactics and walk away with the victory! Oh no, but.. opposing the opposition, that's... baaaaaad?

Ugh? More like vydra got found out and marked out of games.

I’m by no means saying I prefer Rowettball over coco but thus far coco has chopped and changed 24 games in and has shown no real style of play other than playing out from the back which Davies, fozzy, Clarke, etc. are not equipped to do.

Give him 2 more transfer windows? but I hope we’re not buying players for a league 1 promotion push in 20/21 ?

[Ramfan1958]

35 minutes ago, philmycocu said:

Glad I don't sit near you (prob on settee?)

That's right ref the settee 45 years season ticket holder 90 mile round trip every match. 

Cocu Out !!!