George Evans

[Nuwtfly]

11 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

So it seems to me that what you want is primarily a footballer - What I want is primarily a defender - Davies may not be the very best individual option we have in that position currently (for the reasons you state above) but he's the one organising and adding discipline to the back 5/6

I rate Evans but he's not played CB for the majority of his career so expecting him to drop back there an immediately start marshaling the defence is a very big ask - You usually need a defender with years of experience to do that

Interestingly in the first 2/3 games Clarke was venturing forward loads but seems to have retreated back now - Not sure if he's been told to do that or whether it's a confidence thing - But he's your marauder from deep if you need one

I think this dilemna explains why the club are reportedly making a new centre-half their No.1 priority in the January transfer window! ?

[KCG]

A few people recommending Wisdom for centre-back fail to recognise that he has the same problem as Davies i.e. his ball distribution is crap. Davies is a good centre-half that needs to play the simple pass to a better distributor. Problems arise when players are expected to do things they are not capable of doing. The adage you can't teach "an old dog..." comes to mind.

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, Nuwtfly said:

We need someone in there who can carry the ball out like Keogh did

Honestly I think that's a bit of a fallacy. Get the midfield right and you don't.

Back in 2013/14 Buxton & Keogh were tidy passers but they had John Eustace & latterly George Thorne in front of them, Will Hughes, Jeff Hendrick & Craig Bryson too, a number of players always looking to receive a pass, willing to take the ball off the CBs and advance into the opposition's half with it, looking for openings on the run. 

We had a very dynamic midfield (OK, maybe with the exception of Eustace!) - compare that with Johnson, Butterfield? Huddlestone, Ledley? and you've got the exact opposite style of midfield.

Keogh very rarely ran 40 yard runs up to the opposition box back then, but we still played excellent football. Wisdom wasn't / isn't seen as an attacking full back and people don't rate his passing, but we still played excellent football. Forsyth's lazy passing has been criticised for years, but we still played excellent football.

The only reason we had Keogh doing that so often in recent seasons has been because we've completely failed to address the issues we've had in central midfield and there's been a recurring theme of other players not wanting to take responsibility of the ball and a lack of movement / options ahead of him.

You don't see many other teams relying so heavily on a CB running through the lines with it in the same manner.

I know it was against 10 men and Boro are crap, but aside from Davies' 1st minute clanger was any point in that game where he and Clarke's passing was an issue? Is one of the abiding memories of that game that we lacked an attacking threat due to the defenders being slow to distribute? I don't think so.

My lasting memory is of Bielik having a stormer, Shinnie being everywhere, Lawrence coming deep and collecting the ball from defence, and us creating loads of opportunities through positive attacking play even when Boro had 11 men. 

Evans (91.4), Clarke (91.5) Shinnie (92.9) & Bielik (95.2) all had extremely high pass success rates and it wasn't because they spent all game playing it around aimlessly one-twoing with each other.

['Rambe33]

14 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Honestly I think that's a bit of a fallacy. Get the midfield right and you don't.

Back in 2013/14 Buxton & Keogh were tidy passers but they had John Eustace & latterly George Thorne in front of them, Will Hughes, Jeff Hendrick & Craig Bryson too, a number of players always looking to receive a pass, willing to take the ball off the CBs and advance into the opposition's half with it, looking for openings on the run. 

We had a very dynamic midfield (OK, maybe with the exception of Eustace!) - compare that with Johnson, Butterfield? Huddlestone, Ledley? and you've got the exact opposite style of midfield.

Keogh very rarely ran 40 yard runs up to the opposition box back then, but we still played excellent football. Wisdom wasn't / isn't seen as an attacking full back and people don't rate his passing, but we still played excellent football. Forsyth's lazy passing has been criticised for years, but we still played excellent football.

The only reason we had Keogh doing that so often in recent seasons has been because we've completely failed to address the issues we've had in central midfield and there's been a recurring theme of other players not wanting to take responsibility of the ball and a lack of movement / options ahead of him.

You don't see other teams relying so heavily on a CB running through the lines with it in the same manner.

I know it was against 10 men and Boro are crap, but aside from Davies' 1st minute clanger was any point in that game where he and Clarke's passing was an issue? Is one of the abiding memories of that game that we lacked an attacking threat due to the defenders being slow to distribute? I don't think so.

My lasting memory is of Bielik having a stormer, Shinnie being everywhere, Lawrence coming deep and collecting the ball from defence, and us creating loads of opportunities through positive attacking play even when Boro had 11 men. 

Evans (91.4), Clarke (91.5) Shinnie (92.9) & Bielik (95.2) all had extremely high pass success rates and it wasn't because they spent all game playing it around aimlessly one-twoing with each other.

This is a really good point. When we had Keogh and Bucko at the back we adopted the model that served Norwich and recently Leeds so well is their centre backs were very effective at the long diagonal ball to wingers meaning you bypass the midfield. You're then in a position whereby your wingers pick the ball up with a centre forward ahead of them but also midfielders coming to join the attack and then you get them on the ball in the right areas. 

For me there is far too much emphasis (at championship level) with wanting to play from the back. If you don't have good enough players to do so you inevitably get the sideways/backwards football we have seen at times. 

A long ball doesn't have to be an aimless pass and I think some teams do this very well and something we should look at. 

 

 

I do agree that there is a bit of an obsession with 

[cheron85]

43 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

I think this dilemna explains why the club are reportedly making a new centre-half their No.1 priority in the January transfer window! ?

That and we have zero contracted CBs as of June 2020! ?

[SaintRam]

15 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

That and we have zero contracted CBs as of June 2020! ?

That's alright none of them would cut it in the prem anyway 

[cheron85]

6 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

That's alright none of them would cut it in the prem anyway 

I seem to recall people saying that about Wes Morgan in League One?

Almost as if most fans don't know much about football... ?

[IslandExile]

I like Davies but he does give the ball away a lot.... First minute against Boro, a couple of times in dangerous situations at Hull immediately spring to mind.

It means you have to do more defending.

[cannable]

1 hour ago, 'Rambe33 said:

This is a really good point. When we had Keogh and Bucko at the back we adopted the model that served Norwich and recently Leeds so well is their centre backs were very effective at the long diagonal ball to wingers meaning you bypass the midfield. You're then in a position whereby your wingers pick the ball up with a centre forward ahead of them but also midfielders coming to join the attack and then you get them on the ball in the right areas. 

For me there is far too much emphasis (at championship level) with wanting to play from the back. If you don't have good enough players to do so you inevitably get the sideways/backwards football we have seen at times. 

A long ball doesn't have to be an aimless pass and I think some teams do this very well and something we should look at. 

 

 

I do agree that there is a bit of an obsession with 

The McClaren team had many strings to its bow. Play out from the centre-halves and through the lines, Keogh or Bucko hitting a diagonal, Keogh carrying it, clipping a ball out to Fozzy, clipping one into Martin’s chest, working the space for Thorne to zip it through the thirds, Bryson or Hughes (usually the latter) dropping in to create an angle for the full-back.

Although having said all that, people still used to moan about Whitbread being too slow on the ball. 

[jono]

4 hours ago, therealhantsram said:

We need to at least try, otherwise we don't know. We've never tried him at CB. However we know his most successful season as a player came with him playing at CB.  It stands to reason we should give him a shot. Otherwise we could spend £5m on someone from League 1 who is as much of a risk anyway.

One thing for sure, Wisdom can tackle and keep the ball at his feet. I’d be very comfortable if he was in the starting line up as CB. Good footballer

[europia]

4 hours ago, jono said:

One thing for sure, Wisdom can tackle and keep the ball at his feet. I’d be very comfortable if he was in the starting line up as CB. Good footballer

Yes, I feel that Wisdom has much more to offer than warming the bench. 

[Leicester Ram]

18 hours ago, KCG said:

A few people recommending Wisdom for centre-back fail to recognise that he has the same problem as Davies i.e. his ball distribution is crap. Davies is a good centre-half that needs to play the simple pass to a better distributor. Problems arise when players are expected to do things they are not capable of doing. The adage you can't teach "an old dog..." comes to mind.

Disagree, I think Wisdom looks weak on the ball for a RB (particularly when the other RB in the squad is Bogle) but would actually be quite decent on the ball for a CB. I’ve seen Wisdom look really strong on the ball during parts of his Derby career, usually when he’s had a run in the team and built up some confidence.

I’d like to see him given a couple games there, he’s a lot quicker than Davies/Clarke and is ridiculously strong. Could compliment Clarke really well, particularly as Bielik’s position is becoming more of a hybrid CB/CDM in the diamond, Wisdom suits that faux back three.

[RadioactiveWaste]

I could see two things about Evans, firstly, I think he's a Cocu kind of player, responded well to coaching and I could see him being liked as the passing CB along with one of Clarke or Davies, and secondly he think he is probably starting to find his niche for defensive and midfield cover where we know he'll do the job when he's picked or comes on. Don't think he'll be a star player, but a well liked and respected squad member - and those are important to have for every team. 

[KCG]

3 hours ago, Leicester Ram said:

Disagree, I think Wisdom looks weak on the ball for a RB (particularly when the other RB in the squad is Bogle) but would actually be quite decent on the ball for a CB. I’ve seen Wisdom look really strong on the ball during parts of his Derby career, usually when he’s had a run in the team and built up some confidence.

I’d like to see him given a couple games there, he’s a lot quicker than Davies/Clarke and is ridiculously strong. Could compliment Clarke really well, particularly as Bielik’s position is becoming more of a hybrid CB/CDM in the diamond, Wisdom suits that faux back three.

Wisdom's ball distribution would be weak in any position he plays, it's just not his forte.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

2 minutes ago, KCG said:

Wisdom's ball distribution would be weak in any position he plays, it's just not his forte.

He's fairly good on the ball.

[KCG]

7 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

He's fairly good on the ball.

No, he's not, he never has been.

[SaintRam]

7 minutes ago, KCG said:

No, he's not, he never has been.

During the 2013/14 season he was alright. His number of crosses finding targets was good and his pass % was 83% which is above average for our side.

While that is the only season he's ever managed >80% pass completion; he was only just under in his 2/3 of a season in the prem with WBA and I can't find detailed stats of his time with Salzburg.

 

He was pretty poor on the ball during Rowett's time though, for sure. But then, most of our team was.

[KCG]

5 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

During the 2013/14 season he was alright. His number of crosses finding targets was good and his pass % was 83% which is above average for our side.

While that is the only season he's ever managed >80% pass completion; he was only just under in his 2/3 of a season in the prem with WBA and I can't find detailed stats of his time with Salzburg.

 

He was pretty poor on the ball during Rowett's time though, for sure. But then, most of our team was.

I'm surprised at those stats because his distribution is poor, especially when under pressure. TBH if he had passing ability he would have been playing in the Prem, because his defending used to be good.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

15 minutes ago, KCG said:

No, he's not, he never has been.

Yes, he is. He always has been. Not Tomori level, but not bad at all.

[KCG]

4 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Yes, he is. He always has been. Not Tomori level, but not bad at all.

I think you are guilty of having a convenient bad memory. Remember, when he is given his chance, that you heard it here first.