17/18 Financial Results

[Ghost of Clough]

11 minutes ago, Spanish said:

difficult to debate when we don't have the full background, all you can do is guess.  We bought badly, which is undeniable I think, then we did not manage these guys out, and (maybe) we didn't or were unable to reduce their carrying values meaning we have a mountain of cost to absorb in one year.  Seriously lucky that we have an undervalued asset to utilize.  Or was that always the plan, the ground being a rainy day asset?

Looking at the figures available, it looks like we reduced the values about the same as we did the previous year. As you know, there isn't much info to go off so I could be way off

[Van der MoodHoover]

Somewhere earlier in this thread there was a statement in the financials stating that the wage bill had gone UP in the most recent set of accounts. So the unsustainability had got worse and presumably that was before we had frank and jody on board?

So I assume that means we must be in for a summer of some pruning of wages. I realise that there have been some estimates of outs based on contracts ending, but if anyone were thinking that the stadium deal enabled us to replace a raft of those departures then I would think that needing to get the pruning shears out would suggest otherwise.

[Day]

I would imagine @curb has it spot on for a few fans.

Yes, in an ideal world we and other clubs wouldn't have to inject money through moving the stadium to a separate company, (we are not alone) but we have because we had a real push to go up which saw us spend a lot of money and failed. Again we are not the only club to have tried this method, rightly or wrongly, nor will we be the last.

All those that watched the fans forum the other week will have heard that clubs coming down have a £45m advantage over the rest of the league, or in Stoke's case a disadvantage ahem. It's difficult to compete with as it's not a level playing field.

Some will point to Sheff Utd as a leading example this season, but these are heavily outnumbered by clubs that see spending vast amount of money as the way to go up, odds are most will fail when only 3 can go up. Last season Fulham were the example, the why can't we bring in a star loan signing like Fulham, the same club that recently announced they were losing £4.4m a month in their promotion season!

Gone up, spent £100m and came back down like a sack of spuds. Yes let's be like Fulham eh!?

(How good was that Will Hughes goal to send Fulham down last night by the way?) 

As Curb says not many were criticising Mel at the time after the austerity years under GSE, only now that it's failed, which I get, even if I don't think it's particularly fair unless you was one that voiced concerns at the time. Not saying you can't be critical now, but just remember how you felt at the time.

We can't make decisions through life with hindsight available, these owners might have all the money in the world but no amount of money can predict the future, you make the calls that you believe were right and have to live with those.

Regardless of who was to blame for the money being spent, it's gone, no refunds available, mistakes have been made, hands been held up and you either refuse to accept those, go over old signings and hold a grudge for the rest of time, or be thankful for the efforts to fix the financial future of the club whilst allowing us to remain competitive on the pitch.

We ALL make mistakes in life, each and every one of us, just our mistakes are not huge financial hits that are criticised by thousands of people and fill the newspapers for the rest of the country to shake their heads at.

It's ok to disagree with decisions made and to be thankful that our owner has not become disillusioned, hasn't washed his hands with us and left us like a used toy to the mercy of the high courts and FL, but is doing everything he can to allow this club move forward. 

Again ideal world we wouldn't be in this situation, but we are, as many others are due to the ambitions owner(s) have for taking their clubs to the Premier League, I for one, and I know I'm not alone appreciate the efforts made over the years and hope they are rewarded with promotion during Mel's tenure, for him, us and our fans.

We ALL love this club. 

[Sparkle]

So on the basis that I thought MM owned everything anyway this seems strange but I am ok with it !

so the real sensible stuff is in operation now in that those contracts to be given out have to be what we can sensibly afford!

 

[angieram]

Spot on, @David. ???

[Ghost of Clough]

21 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

Somewhere earlier in this thread there was a statement in the financials stating that the wage bill had gone UP in the most recent set of accounts. So the unsustainability had got worse and presumably that was before we had frank and jody on board?

So I assume that means we must be in for a summer of some pruning of wages. I realise that there have been some estimates of outs based on contracts ending, but if anyone were thinking that the stadium deal enabled us to replace a raft of those departures then I would think that needing to get the pruning shears out would suggest otherwise.

A bit of guess work says we've lowered the wage bill by about £5m this season. An £10m is currently set to leave at the end of the season

[AdamRam]

12 minutes ago, David said:

As Curb says not many were criticising Mel at the time after the austerity years under GSE, only now that it's failed, which I get, even if I don't think it's particularly fair unless you was one that voiced concerns at the time. Not saying you can't be critical now, but just remember how you felt at the time.

Cannot and never will agree with that. It’s a bit like a kid asking for a new toy at Christmas and asking them to shoulder the blame when the house is repossessed because the parents went into debt to pay for it.

MM said from day one he didn’t buy Derby to lose money, I certainly didn’t ask him to buy the club, I have never thought he should put X million in to fund a player, I haven’t got eight of how we are doing against FFP, and I’m slightly disappointed that several years after he took over Derby Counry no longer own their ground., did he gamble for the fans or has he one eye on the big prize are the rewards it brings with it.

So I feel I have every right to be critical of, and big if, because I don’t know the in and outs of the deal so will reserve judgment on that, under his tenure his actions, which include millions spent on numerous managers etc are to the detriment of the club.

It also doesn’t mean that I can’t appreciate the good he has done for the club, however let’s not forget the actual daily loss the club is running at before we go throwing criticism at other teams.

 

[Jourdan]

1 hour ago, curb said:

We tried to buy our way out of the league and failed, doesn't mean it was wrong to try, not many people were criticising him when we were splashing the cash.

At the same time though, he was looking long term and also investing in getting the academy up to grade 1, which I think we're starting to see the benefits of now with the U23s and U18s doing so well, so hopefully this manoeuvre steers us through the next couple of seasons FFP after which we'll be more sustainable with some of the youngsters coming through. 

I’d love to think the academy could be our future.

But this takes so much time, patience and conviction to implement. Southampton really set the bar for a club of our size when it comes to producing a pathway for academy players to the first team and then profiting from their development. But this in itself was surely the result of years of planning and persistence before the likes of Walcott, Bale and Oxlade Chamberlain came to the fore.

I just don’t see us being able to benefit that greatly from the academy and all of the investment we have poured into it. The need for more immediate success is too great.

In 20 years, we have only produced four notable talents - Tom Huddlestone, Giles Barnes, Jeff Hendrick, and Will Hughes. Only one of them commanded a fee in excess of £10 million.

It will take a massive leap of faith to reverse that, especially when it’s still often more viable in our predicament to loan young players from top clubs.

Do you really see us building a successful team that includes 3-4 academy players and then getting the right price for these players when better placed clubs come in for them?

The Hughes to Watford debacle doesn’t inspire me with much hope. He is the best player we have produced in 20 years and we only got £8 million!?!

[SaintRam]

Isn't it true that this means we haven't owned our stadium for a year, and only just found out? ? 

[Uptherams]

26 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

Somewhere earlier in this thread there was a statement in the financials stating that the wage bill had gone UP in the most recent set of accounts. So the unsustainability had got worse and presumably that was before we had frank and jody on board?

So I assume that means we must be in for a summer of some pruning of wages. I realise that there have been some estimates of outs based on contracts ending, but if anyone were thinking that the stadium deal enabled us to replace a raft of those departures then I would think that needing to get the pruning shears out would suggest otherwise.

Looking at the figures, it strikes me that the plan is to have the entire wage bill equal to our revenue. So approximately £30m. Upgrades to our infrastructure will now cost this other company money. So without factoring in the stadium instalments and also transfer outgoings, we will continue to make a loss, but one somewhere between £5m-£10m a season. 

Players that could or should leave include:

Carson

Forsyth

Bryson

Jozefzoon

Johnson

Evans

Nugent

Olsson

Anya

Davies

Pearce

Butterfield

Martin

Blackman

Thorne

[Jourdan]

How long before we hear this on Soccer Saturday?

’Let’s go over to Mel Morris’s Pride Park where Frank Lampard’s Derby County are looking for another home win. Bianca Westwood, how have they started?’

’Jeff, it’s a sunkissed day here at Mel Morris’s Pride Park, still no quiche on the concourses mind you, still 0-0...’

[Ghost of Clough]

8 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I’d love to think the academy could be our future.

But this takes so much time, patience and conviction to implement. Southampton really set the bar for a club of our size when it comes to producing a pathway for academy players to the first team and then profiting from their development. But this in itself was surely the result of years of planning and persistence before the likes of Walcott, Bale and Oxlade Chamberlain came to the fore.

I just don’t see us being able to benefit that greatly from the academy and all of the investment we have poured into it. The need for more immediate success is too great.

In 20 years, we have only produced four notable talents - Tom Huddlestone, Giles Barnes, Jeff Hendrick, and Will Hughes. Only one of them commanded a fee in excess of £10 million.

It will take a massive leap of faith to reverse that, especially when it’s still often more viable in our predicament to loan young players from top clubs.

Do you really see us building a successful team that includes 3-4 academy players and then getting the right price for these players when better placed clubs come in for them?

The Hughes to Watford debacle doesn’t inspire me with much hope. He is the best player we have produced in 20 years and we only got £8 million!?!

Bogle is already a regular for us. Bennett, Lowe, Bird and Thomas will all be at least squad players next season (if they aren't loaned out). Elsnik, MacDonald, Mitchell-Lawson, Sibley, Wilson, Hunt, Buchanan, Ravas all have a strong chance of breaking into the team in the next couple of years as well.

[G STAR RAM]

17 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

A bit of guess work says we've lowered the wage bill by about £5m this season. 

Interested to see your workings for this guess.

You think we've lowered our wage bill by £100k per week?

We've added Tomori, Malone, Cole, Mount, Wilson, Josefzoon, Holmes, Marriott and Waghorn, as well as the manager/coaching staff to the wage bill this season. 

So my guess is that in real terms, the people we have moved off the wage bill would have had to be earning closer to £200k per week to achieve a £5m reduction.

Shoot

[curb]

19 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I’d love to think the academy could be our future.

But this takes so much time, patience and conviction to implement. Southampton really set the bar for a club of our size when it comes to producing a pathway for academy players to the first team and then profiting from their development. But this in itself was surely the result of years of planning and persistence before the likes of Walcott, Bale and Oxlade Chamberlain came to the fore.

I just don’t see us being able to benefit that greatly from the academy and all of the investment we have poured into it. The need for more immediate success is too great.

In 20 years, we have only produced four notable talents - Tom Huddlestone, Giles Barnes, Jeff Hendrick, and Will Hughes. Only one of them commanded a fee in excess of £10 million.

It will take a massive leap of faith to reverse that, especially when it’s still often more viable in our predicament to loan young players from top clubs.

Do you really see us building a successful team that includes 3-4 academy players and then getting the right price for these players when better placed clubs come in for them?

The Hughes to Watford debacle doesn’t inspire me with much hope. He is the best player we have produced in 20 years and we only got £8 million!?!

Anyone who's been following the academy over the last few years cannot fail to be impressed with the progress being made, especially this season. While there is no guarantee that any youngsters will make the step up, its not wildly optimistic to think that in a few seasons time the majority of our first team will be home grown and the others will have a sale value. 

[Day]

12 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Cannot and never will agree with that. It’s a bit like a kid asking for a new toy at Christmas and asking them to shoulder the blame when the house is repossessed because the parents went into debt to pay for it.

MM said from day one he didn’t buy Derby to lose money, I certainly didn’t ask him to buy the club, I have never thought he should put X million in to fund a player, I haven’t got eight of how we are doing against FFP, and I’m slightly disappointed that several years after he took over Derby Counry no longer own their ground., did he gamble for the fans or has he one eye on the big prize are the rewards it brings with it.

So I feel I have every right to be critical of, and big if, because I don’t know the in and outs of the deal so will reserve judgment on that, under his tenure his actions, which include millions spent on numerous managers etc are to the detriment of the club.

It also doesn’t mean that I can’t appreciate the good he has done for the club, however let’s not forget the actual daily loss the club is running at before we go throwing criticism at other teams.

The age old, I didn't ask him too buy the club or spend this money so I'll sit here and wag my finger at him when it goes wrong. That's what my missus does when I buy something for the house, we're on our 3rd sofa now in 3 years which I have had to take full responsibility for even though she was the one getting all giddy taking off the wrapping.

Did you ask GSE to buy the club, what about the 3 Amigos, how many owners have you actually asked to buy the club and which signings can we hold you accountable for because you personally asked for?

Its a great defence to have, I didn't ask for it, but guess what, not one of us asked for any of this, that doesn't mean we wasn't grateful at the time and that's the point I was making that yes it's ok to be critical, just remember how you felt at the time. Let's not forget...

As you wasn't on the forum at the time, we can only rely on your honesty when I ask were you happy with the signings, if not which and why?

I can tell you from being here at the time, many on this forum were happy, many were embracing the memes of Sam Rush always getting his man and laughing off other clubs as being bitter as we spent pound after pound. 

Not everyone, I do remember some which have remained concerned throughout, you may have been one had you been on the forum, as I say, I will take your word on that. 

[Ghost of Clough]

3 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Interested to see your workings for this guess.

You think we've lowered our wage bill by £100k per week?

We've added Tomori, Malone, Cole, Mount, Wilson, Josefzoon, Holmes, Marriott and Waghorn, as well as the manager/coaching staff to the wage bill this season. 

So my guess is that in real terms, the people we have moved off the wage bill would have had to be earning closer to £200k per week to achieve a £5m reduction.

Shoot

Outs (full season): Baird, Bent, Jerome, Shackell, Weimann, Vydra, Blackman, Martin, Hanson, Mitchell, Lowe, Thomas

Outs (part season): Ledley, Butterfield, Thorne, Pearce, McAllister

A lot of those players will have been on big wages. the first 6 players mentioned would have been on at least a combined £150k pw in my opinion. Even part contributions for the rest of the loaned out players should surpass the £200k mark.

[Jourdan]

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Bogle is already a regular for us. Bennett, Lowe, Bird and Thomas will all be at least squad players next season (if they aren't loaned out). Elsnik, MacDonald, Mitchell-Lawson, Sibley, Wilson, Hunt, Buchanan, Ravas all have a strong chance of breaking into the team in the next couple of years as well.

Frank has obviously put a lot of faith in Jayden Bogle and Mason Bennett. So you are right in suggesting that if he continues in the same vein, other players will get opportunities.

I am not for one second doubting that we’ll have academy players in and around the squad, to plug gaps and make up the 18.

What I am doubting is that they will be the driving force behind our success or stimulate financial growth, which is what we are really looking for to justify the level of investment we have made.

[Jourdan]

3 minutes ago, curb said:

Anyone who's been following the academy over the last few years cannot fail to be impressed with the progress being made, especially this season. While there is no guarantee that any youngsters will make the step up, its not wildly optimistic to think that in a few seasons time the majority of our first team will be home grown and the others will have a sale value. 

There are great signs for the future, but just how significant those signs are, who knows?

Of course Mel’s vision could be realised, but at the same time, you also need a manager at the helm that is going to facilitate that.

We’ve had five permanent managers and another two interim managers in the last four years alone.

If we were the picture of stability and stood behind a clear philosophy, I could totally see your point.

But we are just one bad season and one managerial change from Frank’s efforts to introduce young players going up in smoke.

[Ghost of Clough]

Just now, Jourdan said:

There are great signs for the future, but just how significant those signs are, who knows?

Of course Mel’s vision could be realised, but at the same time, you also need a manager at the helm that is going to facilitate that.

We’ve had five permanent managers and another two interim managers in the last four years alone.

If we were the picture of stability and stood behind a clear philosophy, I could totally see your point.

But we are just one bad season and one managerial change from Frank’s efforts to introduce young players going up in smoke.

A stricter wage budget would force pretty much any manager in to having a small first team squad and relying on youths as squad fillers

[AdamRam]

18 minutes ago, David said:

The age old, I didn't ask him too buy the club or spend this money so I'll sit here and wag my finger at him when it goes wrong. That's what my missus does when I buy something for the house, we're on our 3rd sofa now in 3 years which I have had to take full responsibility for even though she was the one getting all giddy taking off the wrapping.

I’m only quoting part as it’s a long post ?

My point around not asking him to buy it, and you seem to have ignored the rest but I’ll come into that, is that I don’t care who owns the club, I don’t give a monkeys if he holds fans forums, he is the custodian of the club and should be held accountable for his tenure, there is a difference between you and your sofa and increasing the clubs debt to over 20m in a season and having to sell the ground. Just because he is a fan doesn’t mean I have to be grateful.

The other part of my post, and this will refer to your second part, is that if you ask the fans at the time we’re they happy with spending all that money if they knew either a) we would fall of FFP or b) we would have to sell our ground as a result, they would have been quite as vocal around thinking this is a good idea.

How many time has MM said we are within FFP guidelines, and how many times has he said we are within them but only if we sell the ground as a result, the only information we have had to go on is the former, therefore of course fans arent going to be happy. I don’t see why, now they have a better picture they are not going to be critical, tell me, why don’t you think he announced this at the fans forum ?

Was I begging for money to be spent at the time, no, was I pleased with money being spent, of course. 

Question for you, I won’t ask my previous one as you don’t seem to want to answer that, would you have been happy with spending all that money at the time if you knew we would be up against FFP and have to sell our ground as a result ?