Highgate Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Carl Sagan said: But the question has no meaning. We can't ever know this except through voting. First we had the referendum where Brexit won. Then we had the 2017 general election with 84% of votes going to parties who said they were determined to implement Brexit. Now we've had the European parliament elections - a politics professor and head of the politics school at the University of London calculated the vote based on Westminster constituencies and here it is. 414 Brexit Party MPs. Lib Dems the next biggest party on 76. You can't really get more emphatic: I guess we can never know for sure what side would win a referendum until the votes are counted but we can certainly realize, especially with the benefit of hindsight, if the referendum itself was poorly designed. I'm not sure what relevance Westminster seat numbers won by Brexit supporting parties in subsequent elections has, given that the referendum is determined by the popular vote and General Elections by the partially democratic FPTP system. I'm not saying for a moment that the desire to honour the results of all referendums is wrong. Just that in my view there are some situations in which a second referendum (in this case when people know exactly what sort of Brexit they will be getting) might be the better course of action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 10 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: But there was also Farage saying even if we left with no deal it would still be better than our current deal (or something along them lines). Although I obviously concede that Farage was not officially part of the Leave campaign. He also said that Turkey were about to join the EU. He is a self-promoting liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 38 minutes ago, GboroRam said: Not everyone who voted leave shared Farage's views. You just agreed with that. Yes. Not sure I implied that? Was just saying that No Deal was not something that wasn't mentioned prior to Brexit vote. However, on review I would say it is something that was barely mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/22/world/asia/new-zealand-wellbeing-budget.html A brave move by NZ. Almost as if making the population happy and the country a pleasant place to live will lead to growth anyway. Obvious when you think about it Under New Zealand’s revised policy, all new spending must advance one of five government priorities: improving mental health, reducing child poverty, addressing the inequalities faced by indigenous Maori and Pacific islands people, thriving in a digital age, and transitioning to a low-emission, sustainable economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 39 minutes ago, HantsRam said: I don't know if you've read "Black Swan" by nicholas nassim taleb? What we might have witnessed with the consequences of the referendum is a black swan event. 2 characteristics of a black swan event are 1) completely unexpected in advance 2) can be rationalized in hindsight by making assumptions or recollection which aren't right. He used the outbreak of civil war in Lebanon as an example. Worth a read as its interesting. Anyway, the worry for me is that people like Farage will deliberately reword history so that we do indeed believe that he has been consistent all along and continues to peddle a false narrative. Why doesn't he come out and say something like.."ok so we know that a deal is not looking as straightforward as we thought 3 years ago but I believe on balance the decision to leave is still sound for following reasons..." Instead we have this awful rhetoric of something being "stolen" because we knew all along that leave might have to be with no deal. I think he's lying but if you do come across stuff that proves me wrong then I will hold my hands up. Have to say I think its unlikely but perhaps that's because I detest the man. Just said in another post that No Deal was hardly mentioned at all in the lead up to the vote. The Single Market and Customs Union on the other hand were both central issues to the Remain campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 On 23/05/2019 at 18:09, ronnieronalde said: A punch in the face hurts. It's a violent act. Throwing a milk shake as stupid as the clowns are for doing it doesn't risk potential pain and IS NOT A VIOLENT ACT. It's an act of narrow minded stupidity but there clearly is a difference. I think that's his point and I can't see how you can possibly disagree. Is throwing a milkshake over a guys shirt a violent act? Yes or no? Yes ,it’s assault that can and often does cause a split second shock reaction that escalated violence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 On 23/05/2019 at 18:19, eddie said: Should the fan who threw a pint over me have been jailed? The beer wasn't even Belgian. Knighted more like?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 20 minutes ago, Archied said: Yes ,it’s assault that can and often does cause a split second shock reaction that escalated violence Assaulted? Milkshake? Never. Assaulted? Peanut? There you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ketteringram Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 I'd like to know the following. If there was another referendum, and the result was the same, give or take a bit, as the last time, what would then happen?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 7 minutes ago, ketteringram said: I'd like to know the following. If there was another referendum, and the result was the same, give or take a bit, as the last time, what would then happen?? Quite. This is why it would be idiotic to run the same referendum again. Any subsequent referendum on the issue has to be specific about the options and more crucially the outcomes have to be realistic and achievable I'd go for 1) exit with the deal as negotiated 2) exit with no deal 3) don't exit at all and revoke A50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 On 23/05/2019 at 23:44, ronnieronalde said: Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, for every positive slant I'll find a negative I'm sure. I'd actually be keen to talk to the little fecker and find out why he can't separate the violence from the views. I see it almost as him trying to right a clear wrong with another wrong and if he can he'll out do their wrong x 2. Still, this thread has been really entertaining and interesting and I have time on my hands so I can be thorough in reading up. First time I've ever seen that Stacey Dooley piece though, I was away from the UK when that was recorded so missed it, amazed it's not more out there as a video section though. Also the first time I've seen the steps he tried to take as a 21 year old, If it was any other outcome than violence and hatred I'd likely have admired his balls for making the stand. Jesus christ that takes some saying. Interesting couple of days I've got coming up. Is Luton REALLY that bad? Total respect ,no matter what conclusion you reach it will be reached with open minded research , personally I’m mixed on the tr issue but gave up pointing out that what I saw was not quite what the mainstream media portrayed as people who know bugger all about you just tag you a racist anyway the point of the post is in response to the question why tr ,Farage seem to have a magnetism ,it’s purely that they acknowledge and address people’s fears where mainstream politicians and media ignore rather than address those fears and try to find positive answers ,for me racism and bigotry is almost always fear based whether that is fear of people/cultures that are seen as different or fear of standing against people around you who consider you one of them and are racist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaltRam Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, StivePesley said: Quite. This is why it would be idiotic to run the same referendum again. Any subsequent referendum on the issue has to be specific about the options and more crucially the outcomes have to be realistic and achievable I'd go for 1) exit with the deal as negotiated 2) exit with no deal 3) don't exit at all and revoke A50 Finally, we agree on something. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 As for a No Deal brexit - a lot of loud voices demanding it, but the focus seems to have been purely on trade Ignoring trade question what does a No Deal brexit mean for: The future of the NHS Brits travelling in Europe Mobile Phone roaming Pet passports Food prices House prices Medication supplies The Irish border Scottish independence Arts and science funding EU nationals settled in the UK The domestic energy market Reciprocal tax agreements Reciprocal health treatment agreements I'm not suggesting that all of these would be a problem, but the reality is that these are the things which will materially affect us more than the absence or existence of trade agreements. It's beggars belief that they aren't being discussed, yet so many leavers seem utterly cocksure that no deal will be fine Interesting to see how many preparedness notice the EU have issued to it's member states in the event of a no deal Brexit (over 100) https://ec.europa.eu/info/brexit/brexit-preparedness/preparedness-notices_en Do you really believe that we are prepared to the same level if this is how it goes down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 25 minutes ago, StivePesley said: Quite. This is why it would be idiotic to run the same referendum again. Any subsequent referendum on the issue has to be specific about the options and more crucially the outcomes have to be realistic and achievable I'd go for 1) exit with the deal as negotiated 2) exit with no deal 3) don't exit at all and revoke A50 If 1 and 2 are realistic and achievable why do we need another Referendum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 16 minutes ago, Archied said: it’s purely that they acknowledge and address people’s fears where mainstream politicians and media ignore rather than address those fears and try to find positive answers ,for me racism and bigotry is almost always fear based whether that is fear of people/cultures that are seen as different or fear of standing against people around you who consider you one of them and are racist Pretty much agree with all of that. The issue comes with whether they are really addressing the fears and trying to find positive answers - or are they just acknowledging those fears and giving people the good feeling that finally someone "famous" is saying what they are thinking, whilst meanwhile they get rich by exploiting those fears. Agree that the vacuum exists because established political parties ignore the issues. Which they do because they know that they caused it and they are doing nothing about the increasing inequality. Like you say, when people feel scared that they are on the wrong side of the poverty line and have no voice - that's when they become ripe for a populist voice blaming "others" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: If 1 and 2 are realistic and achievable why do we need another Referendum? It's a good question, and my honest answer is mainly because it feels like the only way to break the parliamentary impasse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uptherams Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 58 minutes ago, StivePesley said: Quite. This is why it would be idiotic to run the same referendum again. Any subsequent referendum on the issue has to be specific about the options and more crucially the outcomes have to be realistic and achievable I'd go for 1) exit with the deal as negotiated 2) exit with no deal 3) don't exit at all and revoke A50 Splitting the Brexit vote. Who do you think you fool with this rubbish hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, Uptherams said: Splitting the Brexit vote. Who do you think you fool with this rubbish hahaha Single transferable vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 10 minutes ago, Uptherams said: Splitting the Brexit vote. Who do you think you fool with this rubbish hahaha Yes that's a fair point. Probably a better way of doing it - the semi-final would be to get leavers to agree on whether they want to leave with the negotiated deal or leave with no deal. Then when Jack Mariottt has settled it in injury time, the winner goes on to battle Revoke A50 in the final Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1of4 Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 1 hour ago, StivePesley said: Quite. This is why it would be idiotic to run the same referendum again. Any subsequent referendum on the issue has to be specific about the options and more crucially the outcomes have to be realistic and achievable I'd go for 1) exit with the deal as negotiated 2) exit with no deal 3) don't exit at all and revoke A50 1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said: If 1 and 2 are realistic and achievable why do we need another Referendum? For number one to be achievable, a number of MPs would need to alter their views about it or for a general election to be held to fill Parliament with pro brexit members. As for number two to be achievable see above. But with a different set of MPs being changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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