The Politics Thread 2019

[ariotofmyown]

10 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

The thing is people who work hard and have made money for themselves have never really felt like they have had much money but what they do have is assets like a house which they have paid most of their working life for. This has gained value beyond their dreams and they actually think they can pass something of value on to their children. What they don’t want is to have to give 40% to the government.

Oh yes, all those poor souls who have worked down pit for pittance all their life but somehow ended up with an estate worth over 325k and have to pay 40% tax on anything over that.

As you say, this is beyond their dreams, so you think they would really be rather happy with their lot. If only we didn't live in a country obsessed with rising property prices, then their homes would be worth something equivalent to a real salary. They wouldn't have to pay inheritance tax then, but then wouldn't have a house than has gone up in value "beyond their dreams".

[Norman]

3 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

I do know the problems in 'your' areas. You are all bone idle and live on benefits. According to you.

Hilarious that you think of me as some Jacob Mogg character, one of your heroes!

I went to a comprehensive in a depressed midlands town, but unlike you, worked hard. Managed to get an ok job after moving with mates to London after been unemployed for ages.

You should have done the same as me, then you could have joined me in my ivory tower and supported policies that help working people rather than siding with etonian politicians who blame everything on immigrants/the poor depending on which target is currently most hated.

 

Again, you make the most exaggerated claims. Quote me where I say we are all bone idle? Or all on benifits? 

Or where I support JRM? 

I actually earn a fair bit, and work very hard, thank you. Unfortunately house prices mean, at the age of 31, that I am massively in debt. 

You see, there's a housing shortage that has pushed up prices.

[ariotofmyown]

3 minutes ago, Norman said:

Again, you make the most exaggerated claims. Quote me where I say we are all bone idle? Or all on benifits? 

Or where I support JRM? 

I actually earn a fair bit, and work very hard, thank you. Unfortunately house prices mean, at the age of 31, that I am massively in debt. 

You see, there's a housing shortage that has pushed up prices.

I'm just making things up about you like you are about me. Apologies if I got it wrong about you complaining about idle people on benefits, could of sworn you mentioned this happens lots with people you know.

[ariotofmyown]

16 minutes ago, Norman said:

Yeah, like the housing shortage, house prices, personal debt, NHS crisis, wage compression, prisons, policing, public services, transport system etc. Sort of all linked, though isnt it? 

So debate it. Do you think we can sustain 300,000 extra a year? 

Does 300,000 people putting in a few grand of taxes more than they take mean we have enough money to build a new hospital, prison, police station, Dr's surgeries, roads, transport links etc? 

How long does it take to build that infrastructure. The problem isn't colour of skin, or even what job they do. It's the sheer number has to be controlled better. 

I hope these immigrants keep pouring in when I'm old or else there will be no tax at all from our aging population.

You raise good points and areas of concern. Some of them are impacted by immigration. But there is so much more to it.  If you don't like immigration, go and live in a "sht" country where no one wants to live. You can buy a wonderful seaview apartment in the gorgeous harbour town of Kalkan in Turkey for about £80k. Amazing fresh food to buy and really cheap too. Probably buy a boat for not much too and take tourists out in Summer on the beautiful still waters.

[maxjam]

42 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Surely you accept that EU immigrants are usually young and fit workers who contribute taxes and use a disproportionate amount of public services? And that non-EU immigrants (the sort proper racists hate as they aren't white) mostly come to the UK to fulfil specific skills gaps and it is difficult them to even be allowed to work here.

If we don't want as many refugees here, stop contributing to the reasons they move countries (war and climate change).

I've posted this link before but Labour under Tony Blair had no idea so many people would come to the UK;

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/19/tony-blair-admits-did-not-realise-many-migrants-would-come-uk/

Surely you must agree that the numbers that have been coming to the UK have put additional pressure on our already creaking NHS, education, policing, etc not to mention adversly affected community cohesion?

 

Aren't the majority of non-EU migrants males under 35? Call me old fashioned but if I was fleeing war or climate change I'd make sure the women and children got out first.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2016/08/02/4-asylum-seeker-demography-young-and-male/

 

As mentioned previously I am an advocate of controlled immigration, I think that we should fill jobs that we have shortages in - or as you point out in a later post look after our aging population;

14 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

I hope these immigrants keep pouring in when I'm old or else there will be no tax at all from our aging population.

However, thinking about it isn't that a bit selfish?  We're often told the NHS would collapse if all the foreign workers went home.  Doesn't Africa need its own qualified Doctors?  Arguable more so than us?  Will we have to pay reparations again in 200 years time when opinions shift and the west is accused of causing Africa's 21st century brain drain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4349545.stm

https://www.ft.com/content/a696cb30-d894-11e9-9c26-419d783e10e8

 

[Highgate]

53 minutes ago, maxjam said:

agreed

I don't really know the answer to this tbh but it really needs to be discussed openly rather than people feeling scared to bring it up through fear of being called racist.  Personally, I guess that given we have allowed so many migrants into the country already, initial controlled immigration should be on a filling necessary jobs basis.

A couple of interesting articles here;

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/apr/14/david-cameron-immigrants-learn-english

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/20/tony-blair-says-migrants-must-integrate-to-combat-far-right

It's a shame if people feel they can't discuss immigration openly for fear of being called racist.  There are many reasons why people don't support an open border policy.  Economic concerns are foremost in many people's minds when discussing the issue.  They are worried if their country can readily accommodate a sharp increase in population without putting a strain on it's budget and infrastructure. Of course there are also the far-right racists but their opinions can be readily dismissed as illogical. There is a larger group of those who can't be described as racists but could be classed as 'culturist', someone who fears that immigrants will erode the 'native' culture of the host country if they arrive in too large a number. They could be totally devoid of racist tendencies on an individual level, agree entirely that no race is inferior to any other but yet they may fear the rapid change in the appearance and 'culture' of the country they were familiar with. 

If I were choosing who to let in, I'd start with the most needy...those fleeing wars.  For all the skills your economy needs, you could train those yourself with an adequate education system and some planning.  There would be some shortages from time to time that would have to be filled obviously. 

Those articles seem, to some extent, reinforce what I was saying earlier (or maybe I'm reading them selectively).  As long as immigrants obey the rules (I presume 'rules' is just a synonym for laws here) and laws of their adopted land then the diversity they bring is welcome.  I don't know what they mean by 'norms'  what norms were they referring to?  Obviously forced marriages shouldn't be allowed as they are against the law.  As for the headline referring to Tony Blair saying that 'immigrants must integrate to combat the far right', that seems a bizarre point.  It's not the responsibility of immigrants to combat the far-right.  It's up to the far-right to stop being idiots.  Not that I'll hold my breath on that one. 

[Rev]

33 minutes ago, Norman said:

Again, you make the most exaggerated claims. Quote me where I say we are all bone idle? Or all on benifits? 

Or where I support JRM? 

I actually earn a fair bit, and work very hard, thank you. Unfortunately house prices mean, at the age of 31, that I am massively in debt. 

You see, there's a housing shortage that has pushed up prices.

House prices are absolutely outrageous, that's for sure, and a major cause of a lot of problems.

I'm a decade older than you, as such it was so much easier to get on the property ladder at a young age.

I know if I left school now with 1 GCSE at C or above, as I did then, it would be virtually impossible.

 

[Gritstone Ram]

1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

Oh yes, all those poor souls who have worked down pit for pittance all their life but somehow ended up with an estate worth over 325k and have to pay 40% tax on anything over that.

As you say, this is beyond their dreams, so you think they would really be rather happy with their lot. If only we didn't live in a country obsessed with rising property prices, then their homes would be worth something equivalent to a real salary. They wouldn't have to pay inheritance tax then, but then wouldn't have a house than has gone up in value "beyond their dreams".

Wtf??? Some people but it’s not worth a ban. I’m on here for the footy not dicks. Working with ex miners they told me it wasn’t a pittance you obviously don’t know what you are talking about. I am saying hard working people who have made a life out of nothing which the current system has given them. Not the socialist crap you’re spouting.

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Van Gritters said:

Wtf??? Some people but it’s not worth a ban. I’m on here for the footy not dicks. Working with ex miners they told me it wasn’t a pittance you obviously don’t know what you are talking about. I am saying hard working people who have made a life out of nothing which the current system has given them. Not the socialist crap you’re spouting.

Well you didn't say that. You were moaning about inheritance tax. And you made it sound like it's a major problem for loads of people who can't believe how their house prices had got so high. Not a bad innings if that is what they end up with. If you think this is socialist crap, then it's highly surprising that this is still the policy after years of non-socialist governments.

[Angry Ram]

2 hours ago, reverendo de duivel said:

House prices are absolutely outrageous, that's for sure, and a major cause of a lot of problems.

I'm a decade older than you, as such it was so much easier to get on the property ladder at a young age.

I know if I left school now with 1 GCSE at C or above, as I did then, it would be virtually impossible.

 

Not really. Part ownership, help to buy. 
Little Angry has recently become a home owner, so it is possible even down sarf. 
He left school with nothing just a good work ethic. 

[Stive Pesley]

8 hours ago, maxjam said:

There are no easy answers but when you limit discussion with accusations of racism etc we are never going to reach answers, just increased division.

I don't buy that argument for one second. Do you really believe that these ideas fail to gain traction because they attract accusations of racism?

It's because they are crap ideas mate.  

[Wolfie]

I see Labour have found another £58bn down the back of the sofa for the disputed women's pensions, which wasn't in their manifesto.

Why wasn't it?. Did they forget about it until yesterday?. How do you not get round to including £58bn of extra spending?. How much other stuff have they forgotten about?

And some people still think they'll be a safe pair of hands with the economy.

[A Ram for All Seasons]

12 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

non-EU immigrants (the sort proper racists hate as they aren't white)

Priti Patel seems to dislike all of them, whether EU or non-EU

[GboroRam]

8 hours ago, Angry Ram said:

Not really. Part ownership, help to buy. 
Little Angry has recently become a home owner, so it is possible even down sarf. 
He left school with nothing just a good work ethic. 

Help to buy has just meant that available credit increases, so the house builders increase prices. My stepson has just bought a tiny 3 bedroom new build. £180,000. Absolute madness. My first house was £30,000. 

[GboroRam]

9 hours ago, maxjam said:

I'm also happy to employ controlled immigration and fill jobs that the economy needs - but see my previous post about poaching Doctors from Africa that are badly needed in their original countries of origin.

Bit confused by this. How does leaving the EU affect our ability to manage African immigration?

I presume you mean the poorer EU countries rather than Africa, I don't think you mean African doctors who have nationalised after spending a long time living in an EU country. But even then, that's a false presumption. Most NHS immigrant workers come from the old EU countries like Germany, Ireland and Spain, so hardly poor countries.

I think this is where some of the allegation of racism start to come in. The woolly nature of the "control" could be misread. Needs clarification. What needs limiting? How? Why? Who is affected? What's the end goal and how do we plan to get there?

[maxjam]

9 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Bit confused by this. How does leaving the EU affect our ability to manage African immigration?

I presume you mean the poorer EU countries rather than Africa, I don't think you mean African doctors who have nationalised after spending a long time living in an EU country. But even then, that's a false presumption. Most NHS immigrant workers come from the old EU countries like Germany, Ireland and Spain, so hardly poor countries.

I think this is where some of the allegation of racism start to come in. The woolly nature of the "control" could be misread. Needs clarification. What needs limiting? How? Why? Who is affected? What's the end goal and how do we plan to get there?

I'll repost the FT article from a different site so its actually readable without a subscription;

https://businessday.ng/financial-times/article/african-medics-seek-brain-drain-cure-to-tackle-shortages/

Its an interesting article, snippet here;

At the same time, there has been a growing “pull” from the UK and other richer nations for doctors and nurses from Africa, as their own health systems have struggled to train and retain sufficient local healthcare workers while demand from ageing populations continues to rise.

“There’s a huge drain of resources from the continent. The disease and social challenges outweigh what they can provide in Africa,” says Dorcas Gwata, who left her native Zimbabwe as a teenager to help her sister in Edinburgh in Scotland, before training as a nurse and then in public health in London. “We need to stop recruiting from low income countries. We are taking from Africa their greatest assets.”

[GboroRam]

10 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I'll repost the FT article from a different site so its actually readable without a subscription;

https://businessday.ng/financial-times/article/african-medics-seek-brain-drain-cure-to-tackle-shortages/

Its an interesting article, snippet here;

At the same time, there has been a growing “pull” from the UK and other richer nations for doctors and nurses from Africa, as their own health systems have struggled to train and retain sufficient local healthcare workers while demand from ageing populations continues to rise.

“There’s a huge drain of resources from the continent. The disease and social challenges outweigh what they can provide in Africa,” says Dorcas Gwata, who left her native Zimbabwe as a teenager to help her sister in Edinburgh in Scotland, before training as a nurse and then in public health in London. “We need to stop recruiting from low income countries. We are taking from Africa their greatest assets.”

Unfortunately can't read it at work. 

But again - how does leaving the EU affect our ability to manage migration from Africa?

[AndyinLiverpool]

12 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I'll repost the FT article from a different site so its actually readable without a subscription;

https://businessday.ng/financial-times/article/african-medics-seek-brain-drain-cure-to-tackle-shortages/

Its an interesting article, snippet here;

At the same time, there has been a growing “pull” from the UK and other richer nations for doctors and nurses from Africa, as their own health systems have struggled to train and retain sufficient local healthcare workers while demand from ageing populations continues to rise.

“There’s a huge drain of resources from the continent. The disease and social challenges outweigh what they can provide in Africa,” says Dorcas Gwata, who left her native Zimbabwe as a teenager to help her sister in Edinburgh in Scotland, before training as a nurse and then in public health in London. “We need to stop recruiting from low income countries. We are taking from Africa their greatest assets.”

'Dorcas' is a tremendous name.

[maxjam]

8 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Unfortunately can't read it at work. 

But again - how does leaving the EU affect our ability to manage migration from Africa?

Its a very interesting counter argument to controlled immigration (by which I mean migrants have had the offer of a job) and one I'd not really thought of tbh.

We already have the means to limit non-EU migration, we just choose not to do so. 

Given that all Brexiteers are thick racists for trying to stem mainly white european immigration, it would be political suicide to try and stem mainly non-white immigration.  Look at the Tories now, controlled immigration is one of their policies and they are being labelled hard right.

[Wolfie]

46 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said:

I see Labour have found another £58bn down the back of the sofa for the disputed women's pensions, which wasn't in their manifesto.

Why wasn't it?. Did they forget about it until yesterday?. How do you not get round to including £58bn of extra spending?. How much other stuff have they forgotten about?

And some people still think they'll be a safe pair of hands with the economy.

The IFS aren't thrilled about it either....

These are the so-called Waspi women Women Against State Pension Inequality and Paul Johnson, director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies talked to BBC Radio 4's Today Programme about the plan which is costed at £58bn.

"Let's hope it isn't more than that because that’s a very large sum of money indeed.

"There are two increasing things about that - the sheer scale of it and it immediately breaks their promises they made in their manifesto just week to only borrow to invest so they would need even more than their £80bn of tax rises if they wanted to cover that.

"The other thing is just a statement of priorities... They are not finding money to reverse the welfare cuts for genuinely poor people of working age, and of course, whilst some of this waspi women have suffered hardship… many of them are quite well off."