The Politics Thread 2019

[McRainy]

13 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

Was there ever a vote to ask if we wanted a referendum?

It was in the Tory manifesto and they won the election, so it had a democratic mandate, yes.

Both Labour and the Conservatives also went into the last election promising to deliver the result. 

[Norman]

20 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

 

Was there ever a vote to ask if we wanted a referendum?

 

 

It was a massive vote winning policy for a general election, yes.

[ronnieronalde]

1 minute ago, McRainy said:

It was in the Tory manifesto and they won the election, so it had a democratic mandate, yes.

Both Labour and the Conservatives also went into the last election promising to deliver the result. 

I'm NOT trying to force us to remain here.

The tories put it in their manifesto to win some votes from other parties so they could stay in power. They've then acted even more selfishly next time around by paying the DUP 1.5 BILLION to stay in power. The pieces of poo would sell the own grandma to stay in power.

You listen to Chomsky a lot, have you heard him talk about the tactics of the Republican party to "pretend" to be behind certain issues in order to win votes?

We have a total electorate of 48 million and 35 million of them voted.

so that's 52% of around 75% or something like that?

Speaking for myself here but I was forced to vote to answer I question I didn't ask. 

Be honest here, did you think leave would win? I can only speak to the group of people I know but most of us (including some who didn't vote) were sat on our arses between 8 o clock and 10 o clock that evening repeatedly saying "duck me" leave is going to win.

I bet even leave voters were sitting there thinking duck me we're going to win.

I don't believe the Tories ever thought leave would win when they made the offer. I think they put it in their manifesto for one reason and for one reason only, to pick up the votes needed to scrape through the election and to hold on to their own jobs.

Tusk made the point very well but I'd go a stage further. Cameron wants shooting for what he did. Where is he now? Any idea how much he's earning? I'd hazard a guess that he's alright Jack.

[ronnieronalde]

11 minutes ago, Norman said:

It was a massive vote winning policy for a general election, yes.

What was their majority in that election?

What was their majority in the election before that one?

I'll google it myself but I'm asking genuinely and not nastily.

[McRainy]

20 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

I'm NOT trying to force us to remain here.

The tories put it in their manifesto to win some votes from other parties so they could stay in power. They've then acted even more selfishly next time around by paying the DUP 1.5 BILLION to stay in power. The pieces of poo would sell the own grandma to stay in power.

You listen to Chomsky a lot, have you heard him talk about the tactics of the Republican party to "pretend" to be behind certain issues in order to win votes?

We have a total electorate of 48 million and 35 million of them voted.

so that's 52% of around 75% or something like that?

Speaking for myself here but I was forced to vote to answer I question I didn't ask. 

Be honest here, did you think leave would win? I can only speak to the group of people I know but most of us (including some who didn't vote) were sat on our arses between 8 o clock and 10 o clock that evening repeatedly saying "duck me" leave is going to win.

I bet even leave voters were sitting there thinking duck me we're going to win.

I don't believe the Tories ever thought leave would win when they made the offer. I think they put it in their manifesto for one reason and for one reason only, to pick up the votes needed to scrape through the election and to hold on to their own jobs.

Tusk made the point very well but I'd go a stage further. Cameron wants shooting for what he did. Where is he now? Any idea how much he's earning? I'd hazard a guess that he's alright Jack.

No doubt it was a shady move from Cameron to stave off UKIP and win votes, but surely the point is, it won votes; it's what a majority wanted. He did the right thing for the wrong reasons.

It had been a long time coming though, and we should have had a referendum over the Maastricht Treaty. Tony Benn made the point that Westminster doesn't actually have the constitutional authority to hand over legislative powers to a foreign state without consulting the people. Parliament is all of us, not just the elected representatives. Our membership of the EU is actually the situation that doesn't have a mandate; the people who voted yes in 1975 were not voting for Maastricht  

No, I didn't expect Leave to win, partly because the full government propaganda machine was behind it, and partly because the electorate very rarely votes for significant change. I thought it would probably be a whitewash, like the PR referendum. 

I woke up on that fine sunny morning a very surprised and genuinely delighted bunny indeed. I went to the pub to celebrate, and the sun shone in through the windows on a world returned to sanity. As the song goes, the people had spoken, and the people said duck off!

That it's been a shitshow ever since is not the fault of the original question, or the people who voted. Too many MPs forget that they are our representatives, and not our rulers. 

[ronnieronalde]

6 minutes ago, McRainy said:

No doubt it was a shady move from Cameron to stave off UKIP and win votes, but surely the point is, it won votes; it's what a majority wanted. He did the right thing for the wrong reasons.

It had been a long time coming though, and we should have had a referendum over the Maastricht Treaty. Tony Benn made the point that Westminster doesn't actually have the constitutional authority to hand over legislative powers to a foreign state without consulting the people. Parliament is all of us, not just the elected representatives. Our membership of the EU is actually the situation that doesn't have a mandate; the people who voted yes in 1975 were not voting for Maastricht  

No, I didn't expect Leave to win, partly because the full government propaganda machine was behind it, and partly because the electorate very rarely votes for significant change. I thought it would probably be a whitewash, like the PR referendum. 

I woke up on that fine sunny morning a very surprised and genuinely delighted bunny indeed. I went to the pub to celebrate, and the sun shone in through the windows on a world returned to sanity. As the song goes, the people had spoken, and the people said duck off!

That it's been a shitshow ever since is not the fault of the original question, or the people who voted. Too many MPs forget that they are our representatives, and not our rulers. 

Thanks, I really appreciate the fact you put so much time and thought into replying.

Here's another question and again, I'm asking nicely but i'm asking a question that's none of my business really and you might not want to divulge. I noticed yesterday though that you posted your political party allegiance was Labour up until 6 months ago.

Was the offer of a referendum in Labour's manifesto as well?

If not, did you vote Tory in that election?

[RamNut]

Interesting to read a few different views - especially lambchops- even if it does sound a bit like nigel farage-in-a-skirt.

i ditched voting Labour in the EU election precisely because they didn't commit to supporting a second public vote. I can't see how you can have Brexit without hard borders, and it isn't possible to have a hard border in Ireland. Also, in the final analysis, if the Tory far right want Brexit, then i probably don't. Parliament is a total mess and cannot resolve the matter. A public vote seemed like the only way to resolve the impasse rather than an anti-democratic rejection of the original vote. For what its worth, the Euro-election result convinced me that there would probably be an even bigger majority in favour second time, however i also agree with the view that people did not understand the issues first time around,  and are now better informed.

i don't know where we are heading. MPs have come out of it all very badly, looking like the clueless bunch of toe rags that they all are. They don't believe in anything other than trying to back a winning horse. They were no more committed to Remain than they now are to Brexit. Plonkers like Jeremy Hunt flip flop in order to surf a wave of potential support. 

The whole lot of them make me puke.

 

 

 

[Igorlegend11]

1 hour ago, McRainy said:

It was in the Tory manifesto and they won the election, so it had a democratic mandate, yes.

Both Labour and the Conservatives also went into the last election promising to deliver the result. 

It's also been Liberal policy for years to have an In/out referendum.  

It's outrageous they want to repeat referendums until a result they like can be enforced. 

But a 1 all draw needs a replay, a 2-1 win for either side needs a rematch....all this with five years between each referendum is exactly why wooley liberals can't govern and never will govern 

[Van der MoodHoover]

2 hours ago, McRainy said:

I'm sorry, but I think that's hogwash. The job of Parliament following the referendum was to ensure that we leave within the allotted timescale on whatever terms were available.

What we have had instead is a majority of remain MPs doing their damnedest to scupper the process to make sure it doesn't happen. If Parliament couldn't agree on a deal within the terms of Article 50, then we should have left without one. We should also have been preparing for this possibility from day one. 

Parliament has failed in its duty, and is not fit for purpose. Saying we didn't know how hard it was going to be, and continually kicking the can down the road, simply isn't good enough. 

This bit I absolutely agree with. If you're happy to follow your argument then we have "the best terms" that the EU have been prepared to offer and we the UK shook on it.

Bear in mind that the referendum itself did not dictate a timescale. The only timeboxing came as a result of invoking article 50.

Our government has made a poor job and that's been compounded by naked politicking on all sides which has led us here. 

For me, the best way would seem to be getting the deal through somehow by Oct 31st and taking things from there.

I do believe that Brexit or not, boris Johnson and his ilk is not a solution for our nation. 

[McRainy]

5 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

Thanks, I really appreciate the fact you put so much time and thought into replying.

Here's another question and again, I'm asking nicely but i'm asking a question that's none of my business really and you might not want to divulge. I noticed yesterday though that you posted your political party allegiance was Labour up until 6 months ago.

Was the offer of a referendum in Labour's manifesto as well?

If not, did you vote Tory in that election?

I joined Labour in 1983 on the strength of Foot's 'suicide' manifesto, left in 2003 over the Iraq war, and joined again in 2017 because of Corbyn's manifesto. That really was conditional though, on the promise to honour the referendum, and I feel they have now reneged on that promise. Labour have never offered a referendum on Europe.

My allegiance isn't to a party, but to whatever seems most likely to deliver some measure of justice for working class and vulnerable people. I'm mostly in agreement with Chomsky's anarcho-syndicalism.

I didn't vote Tory in 2015, I have never voted Tory. I didn't have any faith that they would actually call the referendum tbh, so Cameron surprised me. 

I might have held my nose and voted for them in 2017 if they had been the only party offering to take us out... but you just can't, can you. I think party politics is mostly a sham tbh; and we need to move beyond it to a more direct form of democracy. 

Anyway, you are right, I've spent far too much time bleating on here - time to go and do something useful!

[ronnieronalde]

8 minutes ago, Igorlegend11 said:

It's also been Liberal policy for years to have an In/out referendum.  

It's outrageous they want to repeat referendums until a result they like can be enforced. 

But a 1 all draw needs a replay, a 2-1 win for either side needs a rematch....all this with five years between each referendum is exactly why wooley liberals can't govern and never will govern 

I like many of your posts but stuff like that doesn't help anyone Igor. People both sides have genuine and valid concerns.

How do you think people in Rushcliffe feel? They voted remain. Or the people of Scotland where every single council voted remain

The people in Sunderland will be happy, they voted leave.

You must understand people are entitled to be pissed off, it doesn't make them wooley liberals.

Here's a question.

How much would we have spent trying to work out a plan if the Remain vote had won?

How much have we spent trying to work out a plan since the leave vote won?

Do you the think setting up and then living with the results of the referendum has been good use public funds? Forget what may or may not happen when we leave.

 

 

[McRainy]

32 minutes ago, RamNut said:

 

Interesting to read a few different views - especially lambchops- even if it does sound a bit like nigel farage-in-a-skirt.

 

?

[Igorlegend11]

38 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

Thanks, I really appreciate the fact you put so much time and thought into replying.

Here's another question and again, I'm asking nicely but i'm asking a question that's none of my business really and you might not want to divulge. I noticed yesterday though that you posted your political party allegiance was Labour up until 6 months ago.

Was the offer of a referendum in Labour's manifesto as well?

If not, did you vote Tory in that election?

Labour didn't offer referendum in 2015. It was a Tory attempt to hold off UKIP.

Tories has said there would be a referendum in 2010 election. As it was a coalition they could shelve the referendum.  Again, fascinating liberals never insisted on a referendum as part of coalition deal...,

Out of interest I Voted labour last time as my Derby MP was totally useless as a constituency MP.  And it felt good telling the Tory staff outside the polling booth I had nt voted Tory as in two years my MP had been shocking. 

Labour were committed to brexit and I saw no danger to brexit.  

[RamNut]

The only thing to add to the debate is that Esther McVeys launch of her leadership campaign was the funniest twenty minutes on television since that elephant shat on the floor in Blue Peter. 

[Highgate]

3 hours ago, McRainy said:

I'm sorry, but I think that's hogwash. The job of Parliament following the referendum was to ensure that we leave within the allotted timescale on whatever terms were available.

What we have had instead is a majority of remain MPs doing their damnedest to scupper the process to make sure it doesn't happen. If Parliament couldn't agree on a deal within the terms of Article 50, then we should have left without one. We should also have been preparing for this possibility from day one. 

Parliament has failed in its duty, and is not fit for purpose. Saying we didn't know how hard it was going to be, and continually kicking the can down the road, simply isn't good enough. 

Yeah I'm sure you do think it's hogwash, as many who voted Leave would.  What happened in parliament was an obvious shambles, all I'm saying is that part of the reason it was such a mess is that the referendum presented them with a range of choices rather than a straightforward path.  They simply couldn't agree on a way forward.  Unfortunately that was utterly predictable given the design of the referendum. 

So it appears they will finally leave without a deal in October.  Just hypothetically speaking I wonder if there were a second referendum with the choice of Remain or No Deal Brexit what the outcome would be (hopefully some people wouldn't be distracted by the trying to preserve the 'sanctity' of the first referendum.). It seems to me entirely possible that the UK will leave the EU in a manner that has less popular support than remaining in the EU.  It's an unpalatable and nonsensical situation made possible by a carrying about a flawed referendum in the first place. 

Needless to say Leave voters won't agree.

 

[Igorlegend11]

1 hour ago, ronnieronalde said:

I like many of your posts but stuff like that doesn't help anyone Igor. People both sides have genuine and valid concerns.

How do you think people in Rushcliffe feel? They voted remain. Or the people of Scotland where every single council voted remain

The people in Sunderland will be happy, they voted leave.

You must understand people are entitled to be pissed off, it doesn't make them wooley liberals.

Here's a question.

How much would we have spent trying to work out a plan if the Remain vote had won?

How much have we spent trying to work out a plan since the leave vote won?

Do you the think setting up and then living with the results of the referendum has been good use public funds? Forget what may or may not happen when we leave.

 

 

Wooly liberal was an exact description of liberals over the exact point of repeat referendums.  Not called them wooley for being pissed off liberals 

Here's their 2010 manifesto

"The European Union has evolved significantly since the last public vote on membership over thirty years ago. Liberal Democrats therefore remain committed to an in / out referendum the next time a British government signs up for fundamental change in the relationship between the UK and the EU. "

To then have a leave vote and argue it's wrong to leave, too difficult to leave is disgusting. Fine being upset. But not fine to openly trample over democrat clear vote.

It is wooley thinking to campaign for years to keep having referendums until they like the answer.

Michael Gove hilariously pointed this out to Vince cable on floor of house of commons. To which Cable smiled !

Questions and answers 

1)if remain won no plan so no cost

2) quite a bit spent, but we had to waste time at EU behest doing things in wrong order ( no money agreed without a deal )

3)yes, a good use of funds to prepare for exiting EU.  We will strike trade deals abroad as soon as we are free of customs union which is protectionism at its worst 

[alexxxxx]

On 05/07/2019 at 12:07, Igorlegend11 said:

What's lost is this......all the east EU members do NOT have hard border checks.  Eg Lithuania and Russia.    

I've been there on business.  Russian ways and shall we say "imperfect" rules exist.    Lithuanians themselves are heavily aligned to Russia.  There is no hard border. 

 

categorically untrue in all cases. ive sat in a line the turkish/bulgarian border and it is certainly not something youd want to do on the way to work and back.

lithuanian citizens even require visas to visit russia and russian citizens require visas to visit lithuania.

Lithuania doesn't even have a border with russia apart from the exclave Kalliningrad) and the ones that do exist look like this:

 https://www.google.com/maps/@54.641737,22.746689,3a,83.5y,334.62h,80.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sThsOyXECtZbwwGhIe4SBkA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 

Looks pretty hard to me compared to this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@54.2752097,-6.8667532,3a,75y,233.2h,96.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sb3Lz9iPV6-qTjq1NeACb9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

or 

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4644224,2.8656139,3a,78.8y,341.62h,89.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shC7MwzPsHmQal7OonZeEiw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[ariotofmyown]

21 hours ago, McRainy said:

Leavers are gullible, xenophobic and irresponsible, whilst remainers are intelligent, progressive and culturally sophisticated; isn't that the general narrative?

The UK seeks national isolation and a return to a mythical past, whilst the EU represents a kind of Star Trek next generation style enlightenment for the future of humankind. 

It would indeed be disheartening if it turned out to be just another corrupt gravy train for a power hungry and self serving elite. 

The next gravy train to leave St Pancras will be the 6.66 to Asford non-international, calling at Statford and Asford. You're driver will be 'Boris' Johnson and your ticket inspector will be Nigel Farage. All immigrants will be pushed into the sea, along with workers rights, food standards and hope. If you do not wish to board this train, you shouldn't have voted for a campaign fronted by people who have repeatedly trotted out racist lies throughout their so-called careers. Not a shot was fired. Except for the MP killed by racists.

[Igorlegend11]

2 hours ago, alexxxxx said:

categorically untrue in all cases. ive sat in a line the turkish/bulgarian border and it is certainly not something youd want to do on the way to work and back.

lithuanian citizens even require visas to visit russia and russian citizens require visas to visit lithuania.

Lithuania doesn't even have a border with russia apart from the exclave Kalliningrad) and the ones that do exist look like this:

 https://www.google.com/maps/@54.641737,22.746689,3a,83.5y,334.62h,80.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sThsOyXECtZbwwGhIe4SBkA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 

Looks pretty hard to me compared to this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@54.2752097,-6.8667532,3a,75y,233.2h,96.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sb3Lz9iPV6-qTjq1NeACb9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

or 

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4644224,2.8656139,3a,78.8y,341.62h,89.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shC7MwzPsHmQal7OonZeEiw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

It has a border with Russia as you state, at Kaliningrad. This has been increased due to military perceived threat. 

"Because Kaliningrad Oblast is small, homogeneous and an exclave within the European Union, in 2011 the whole Oblast was granted the status of border area eligible to local border traffic rules. In reciprocity, the following Polish administrative districts (powiaty) were granted the same status:[16]"

So you can see when it suits the EU local acceptance of goods moving is allowed 

Kaliningrad ( Russia ) also borders Poland 

In 2015 due to military threat Poland and the EU installed video cameras as a means of observing traffic driving across the border. Technology of video cameras costing £2m pounds. !!

We plan to be fully operational by June this year."

Poland's border with Kaliningrad is part of the external border of the European Union, with four road crossings into the Kaliningrad exclave.

Last year 3.2 million Poles and 3.3 million Russians passed through the border crossings, PAP reports.

The fact is the EU does not and never has required a hard border with a non military threatening state.

There is no need for a hard border in Ireland and that's my main point, not well explained in case of Lithuanian border. 

[alexxxxx]

44 minutes ago, Igorlegend11 said:

It has a border with Russia as you state, at Kaliningrad. This has been increased due to military perceived threat. 

"Because Kaliningrad Oblast is small, homogeneous and an exclave within the European Union, in 2011 the whole Oblast was granted the status of border area eligible to local border traffic rules. In reciprocity, the following Polish administrative districts (powiaty) were granted the same status:[16]"

So you can see when it suits the EU local acceptance of goods moving is allowed 

Kaliningrad ( Russia ) also borders Poland 

In 2015 due to military threat Poland and the EU installed video cameras as a means of observing traffic driving across the border. Technology of video cameras costing £2m pounds. !!

We plan to be fully operational by June this year."

Poland's border with Kaliningrad is part of the external border of the European Union, with four road crossings into the Kaliningrad exclave.

Last year 3.2 million Poles and 3.3 million Russians passed through the border crossings, PAP reports.

The fact is the EU does not and never has required a hard border with a non military threatening state.

There is no need for a hard border in Ireland and that's my main point, not well explained in case of Lithuanian border. 

If you read through the directive that you quote, it still states in Article 6 that member states are required to conduct exit and entrance checks on documentation. The directive just outlines a standard way for schengen countries to agree with third countries to allow those living in border regions to move across the borders without the need for visas. This isn't the same as no hard border. There are still checks.